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Level 2
July 20, 2023
Solved

Planning for 401k to Roth IRA conversion

  • July 20, 2023
  • 2 replies
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I'm 66 years old, retired in 2022 and won't have income coming from W-2. I'm not claiming my SS benefits  (yet) and plan to start taking them at 70.

There will be a minimal income coming from investing (around 2,000).


I'm planning to make 401k -> Roth IRA conversion(s) before RMD starts.
With this plan, I will have 5 years when I will be in the lowest tax bracket. 


Will I be able to simulate this conversion using TurboTax ("What If analysis")?

If so, how and when?

Thank you

    Best answer by SteamTrain

    @SlyFox 

     

    IF you used the Online software to file 2022, there is no "Forms Mode" in the online software, and no What If worksheet either.

    That's why I said you need to use the desktop software.

     

    Thus, if you want to attempt to use the What IF worksheet to predict next year's situation, you'd need to buy the 2022 desktop software, and install it on a full Windows (Rev 10 or higher) or MAC computer (OS Big Sur 11 or higher).

    __________________

     

    You could then download your Online data file and use that as the starting point.

     

    Thing is, that if you had a state in your Online data file then Deluxe would probably be the minimum to buy, since you must install the state before you can open that Online datafile.  If you buy the Deluxe from TTX, it will include one free state software download too.........but If you had more than one state in your Online datafile...then you have to buy the extra state(s) for another $45 each from within the program.

     

    TurboTax® 2022-2023 CD/Download Tax Software for Desktop (intuit.com)

     

    If you buy the Deluxe software from a 3rd party (like Amazon), it will be cheaper, but you have to be careful to buy the right Deluxe software, since it is sold in two versions, both with, and without the one free state software download.   (Opinion: Don't buy the CD, buy a software download.). 

     

    Right now Deluxe 2022 is $70 from Amazon, and $80 directly from TurboTax with the one free state.  Your choice as to whether it's worth it or not......and you do have to buy new softwae every year.

    ___________

    And...and..and no, the What-if worksheet does not predict anything about what the state taxes will be.

    ______

     

    Here's a picture (down below) of just the top part of the What If Worksheet for a Single person who was age 65 in 2022, and will be 66 in 2023.......but it goes on with some 72 lines of details you can change as needed   (or some more lines if you use itemized deductions) with the calculated tax assessed on line 62  (lines 63-to-71 deal with various credits or taxes you might have withheld/prepaid).

     

    You will have to plan to spend a few hours looking at all the lines to decide which need to be changed and to understand where  everything is.   

     

    (Sometimes it's simpler to guesstimate...like if you had wages of $45,000 in 2022, and replace that with $45,000 of Traditional 401k-to-RothIRA conversion, and everything else the same  (No pension?), your Federal tax liability will be about the same .....liability being the total tax assessed before considering any withholding or estimated tax payments.)

     

    2 replies

    SteamTrain
    Level 15
    July 20, 2023

    Sure...if you use the Desktop software every year. After preparing the current year's data in the normal software, you can then use the What-If worksheet where you can transfer the current year's $$, into a second column for predicting the next year's situation...then change all the values for each of the next year's $$ categories to see what the tax hit ends up being for the additional amounts you want to convert, remove W-2 income, and can also check a box to use the next year's expected tax rates.

     

    Issues?

    1)  IF the 401k is a traditional pre-tax 401k, then most, or all of the $$ transferred to ROTH IRA will add to your other income (pension?) which bumps up your AGI and taxable income ....so it may not all be at the lowest tax rate...the actual % tax bracket will then depend total taxable income (after deductions)...and even that will vary too depending on what your filing status is (MFJ, or single?)

    2)  You are not taking SS yet, but if you are also getting a pension to live on, and have started making Medicare payments too, if your income is too high for any one year (including those 401k-to-Roth conversions), then you could get hit with higher Medicare part B and D premiums the next year.  How much, again depends on whether you are single or married.....so pre-planning and dividing up the conversions over several years is usually preferable.

    You can see the Medicare IRMAA tables here:

     

    2023 Medicare Parts A & B Premiums and Deductibles 2023 Medicare Part D Income-Related Monthly Adjustment Amounts | CMS

    _________________

     

    To get the What IF worksheet, after you fully fill in the current year's taxes in the desktop software, you need to switch to Forms Mode to be able to search for and open the What If worksheet.  Then work on that in Forms mode to plan and see the effect of varying the next year's 401k-to-Roth IRA conversion amounts.

    ____________*Answers are correct to the best of my knowledge when posted, but should not be considered to be legal or official tax advice.*
    Level 15
    July 21, 2023

    There are so many moving parts here, you may want to see a financial planner.  Creating taxable income by doing Roth conversions will affect your medicare premiums and the taxability of social security (when you take it).  You are going to have some withdrawals already for living expenses, so you will have to plan carefully so that the extra you take out for conversion does not put you into too high a tax bracket.

     

    Just as an example, if you are single and need $40,000 per year after tax to live, you will already be withdrawing $50,000 and pay 12% tax on everything over $15,000.  If you withdraw another $40K for conversion, that will be taxed at 22%.  However, if we suppose you receive $1000 per month in SS benefit, then at age 70 you would only need to withdraw $16,000 per year to make ends meet, which will almost be tax-free, or taxed at 10% or 15% instead of paying 22% now.

     

    Also, I learned this when my mother developed dementia.  If you need to go into a nursing home, you must be "poor" for Medicaid to pick up the cost.  That means you get to keep $3000 and a car, and everything else goes to the government.  You turn over your assets, your pension and SS benefit, and only then, Medicaid will pick up the remainder.  But, as long as you turn over the RMD of your traditional IRA to the nursing home, you get to keep the principal of the IRA to use for whatever you want, or leave it to your kids.  But because Roth IRAs have no RMD, you have to turn over the entire amount before you get your nursing home covered.  It's years or decades away, but it's something to be aware of.  There's probably an argument that you need a well balanced portfolio of pre-tax assets, Roth assets, and non-protected investments.  good luck. 

    SlyFoxAuthor
    Level 2
    July 21, 2023

    Thank you Opus 17.

    I know most of what you wrote and understand the "prerequisites" for the traditional IRA->Roth IRA conversion to make it have sense.
    - have enough money to cover living expenses until RMD
    - have enough money to pay taxes for the  conversion
    Also, I need to ensure it doesn't affect my Medicare too much. 
    Ideally, I would like to stay in 12% tax bracket.
    Knowing my moderate income from my existing investment, I would like to be able to run numbers.
    I definitely know if I don't have such a conversion done before SS starts and then RMD, I will be hit by a much bigger tax and Medicare. 

    My main question remains: how do I get last year's return in Forms View if I used the Online version of TurboTax and don't have a downloaded version?



     

    SteamTrain
    Level 15
    July 21, 2023

    @SlyFox 

     

    IF you used the Online software to file 2022, there is no "Forms Mode" in the online software, and no What If worksheet either.

    That's why I said you need to use the desktop software.

     

    Thus, if you want to attempt to use the What IF worksheet to predict next year's situation, you'd need to buy the 2022 desktop software, and install it on a full Windows (Rev 10 or higher) or MAC computer (OS Big Sur 11 or higher).

    __________________

     

    You could then download your Online data file and use that as the starting point.

     

    Thing is, that if you had a state in your Online data file then Deluxe would probably be the minimum to buy, since you must install the state before you can open that Online datafile.  If you buy the Deluxe from TTX, it will include one free state software download too.........but If you had more than one state in your Online datafile...then you have to buy the extra state(s) for another $45 each from within the program.

     

    TurboTax® 2022-2023 CD/Download Tax Software for Desktop (intuit.com)

     

    If you buy the Deluxe software from a 3rd party (like Amazon), it will be cheaper, but you have to be careful to buy the right Deluxe software, since it is sold in two versions, both with, and without the one free state software download.   (Opinion: Don't buy the CD, buy a software download.). 

     

    Right now Deluxe 2022 is $70 from Amazon, and $80 directly from TurboTax with the one free state.  Your choice as to whether it's worth it or not......and you do have to buy new softwae every year.

    ___________

    And...and..and no, the What-if worksheet does not predict anything about what the state taxes will be.

    ______

     

    Here's a picture (down below) of just the top part of the What If Worksheet for a Single person who was age 65 in 2022, and will be 66 in 2023.......but it goes on with some 72 lines of details you can change as needed   (or some more lines if you use itemized deductions) with the calculated tax assessed on line 62  (lines 63-to-71 deal with various credits or taxes you might have withheld/prepaid).

     

    You will have to plan to spend a few hours looking at all the lines to decide which need to be changed and to understand where  everything is.   

     

    (Sometimes it's simpler to guesstimate...like if you had wages of $45,000 in 2022, and replace that with $45,000 of Traditional 401k-to-RothIRA conversion, and everything else the same  (No pension?), your Federal tax liability will be about the same .....liability being the total tax assessed before considering any withholding or estimated tax payments.)

     

    ____________*Answers are correct to the best of my knowledge when posted, but should not be considered to be legal or official tax advice.*