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@dmertz @Opus 17 could you explain how, if at all, you need to mark excess contributions as being used for future year contributions where you don't reach your limit with contributions for the future year? I'm having a hard time following but it sounds like you might not need to do anything? Does the IRS track your excess utilization in future years or do you need to track and identify that yourself? Also do you have any links to resources that describe this strategy? Looking at Publication 969 I couldn't find anything that suggests what you are describing is possible. Thanks!
@lemondrop642 wrote:
@dmertz @Opus 17 could you explain how, if at all, you need to mark excess contributions as being used for future year contributions where you don't reach your limit with contributions for the future year? I'm having a hard time following but it sounds like you might not need to do anything? Does the IRS track your excess utilization in future years or do you need to track and identify that yourself? Also do you have any links to resources that describe this strategy? Looking at Publication 969 I couldn't find anything that suggests what you are describing is possible. Thanks!
The excess gets tracked on form 5329 in section 7. Your tax software should do it, but you need to put it in writing. (The IRS won't give you credit for anything unless you put it in writing and sign it.)
For example, if you had an excess contribution in 2022, your tax return would include a form 5329 that assesses the 6% penalty. When you prepare your 2023 return, you use the information from the 2022 form 5329 plus your current contributions, withdrawals, and eligibility, to calculate whether you have used up the excess, or spent it for medical needs, or it is still in the HSA and needs to be penalized again.
@Opus 17 Thanks, I will give this a try! However, now I'm remembering I think on my 2022 return (when I had the excess contributions) I noted in my filing that I'd make a withdrawal to correct this by the 2023 tax year (although I don't have my return in-hand at the moment so I don't recall how this was noted). But I didn't end up withdrawing the excess so I'm still over contributed for 2022. Does the fact that I indicated I'd withdraw the overage change anything? I think I didn't get hit with the 6% excess tax but maybe that makes sense since 2023 would be the first year I get hit with it? Or would I have been hit with it in 2022 as well? Is there a way for me to check this?
And thank you for your super speedy response and willingness to help, I really appreciate it!
If you indicated when preparing your 2022 tax return that you would have the excess contribution made for 2022 returned to you by the due date, including extensions, of your 2022 tax return, TurboTax did not report the excess contribution on a 2022 Form 5329. Failing to actually obtain that distribution means that you now have to file the 2022 Form 5329 to report the excess contribution and pay the 6% penalty for 2022. Since you filed a 2022 tax return, it's best to file the 2022 Form 5329 along with Form 1040-X where you can provide explanation and indicate that this has no other effect on your 2022 tax return. The information from the 2022 Form 5329 is then used to complete the 2023 Form 5329 as Opus 17 described.
You can find additional information in the instructions for Forms 5329 and 8889.
Essentially, you filed an incorrect 2022 tax return, by failing to remove the excess. If you had filed with the correct facts (you would not remove the excess) then a form 5329 would be completed, you would pay the tax, and you would have a 2022 form 5329 that you would use to report and carry forward the excess to 2023.
You need to file an amended 2022 return, change your answer to say that you would not remove the excess, and pay the tax. You will then have the 2022 form 5329 you need for your 2023 tax return.
To amend using Turbotax, start here.
Because form 5329 has a separate signature line, it can be filed alone without a full amended return, so if you wanted to prepare the amended return manually, you just need to fill out form 5329 and form 1040-X and mail them to the IRS with a check. But if you paid to use Turbotax, you might as well use the program to prepare the amended return.
@Opus 17 @dmertz I was able to download my submitted federal and state tax return and I could use your help confirming a few things:
1. I don't see a Form 5329 included in my 2022 tax return which makes me think that I didn't in fact indicate I'd withdraw the excess prior to the filing deadline. To further support that...
2. Line 8F of my Schedule 1 Form 1040 has a value of $500 (the amount of excess I contributed in 2022)
Given this new information do you think I still filed incorrectly and need to file an amendment? Since my submitted 2022 return doesn't have Form 5329 and line 8F of my 1040 has a non-zero value I think I may have been mistaken when I said I indicated I'd correct the excess. Is there any other way I can confirm this or confirm that I was in-fact hit with the 6% excess penalty?
Assuming this is true, the course of action I'd like to take is: Don't touch my HSA contributions from 2022 and simply let the $500 of 2022 excess count towards my 2023 HSA limit (I'm currently just about $500 short of the 2023 contribution limit since mid-year I adjusted my payroll contributions so I'd be below the max with this strategy in mind -- It's all coming back to me!)
Thanks! And let me know if there's other information I can provide to help confirm anything
Your thinking is backwards. You are missing a form 5329 and you have an income on line 8F because you indicated that you would remove the excess. If you had indicated that you would not remove the excess, then you would have form 5329 with a penalty and you would not have income online 8F.
@Opus 17 ah I see that makes sense, thanks for correcting my logic. This however is unfortunate as I've never filed an amended tax return (1040-X) before.
I used Cash App Taxes to file my taxes in 2022. I reached out to their support but it sounds like their software might not allow for me to file a 2022 amendment this close to the start of 2023. Is it possible to file an amendment using Turbo Tax even if I didn't use it to file my original filing?
I'm worried about making further errors. You mentioned earlier I'd only need to file a 1040-X and a 5329 rather than a full amendment (not sure I even know what that would entail). If I were to file the 1040-X and 5329 how involved is that without using software?
Alternatively, if I don't file an amendment for 2022 is there a way that this can still be addressed or taken care of in 2023 even if that means incurring further penalties? If so I'd likely prefer that to reduce further paperwork and opportunity for error. I assume I'd just get hit with a retroactive 6% penalty for 2022, and maybe another 6% for 2023 perhaps?
And finally, since on my 2022 return I indicated I'd withdraw $500 I can't now do a withdrawal of $500 right? To go that route I would have needed to remove the $500 before the filing deadline or extension deadline of 2022 right?
"And finally, since on my 2022 return I indicated I'd withdraw $500 I can't now do a withdrawal of $500 right? To go that route I would have needed to remove the $500 before the filing deadline or extension deadline of 2022 right?"
Correct. The ability to withdraw the excess without penalty has expired.
"Alternatively, if I don't file an amendment for 2022 is there a way that this can still be addressed or taken care of in 2023 even if that means incurring further penalties? If so I'd likely prefer that to reduce further paperwork and opportunity for error. I assume I'd just get hit with a retroactive 6% penalty for 2022, and maybe another 6% for 2023 perhaps?"
The 6% penalty that you owe for 2022 can only be addressed on your 2022 return. If you don't fix it yourself, the IRS has 3 years to catch you, and assess the penalty, with interest and an additional penalty for late payment (totaling about 1.5% per month from whenever they catch you, back to the original filing deadline of April, 2023.)
Separately, if you don't deal with the excess, there will be another penalty for 2023, and every year after that the excess remains in the account. And even if you remove the excess or "use it up" by contributing less than the maximum in some future year, the IRS won't know about it unless you document it--meaning they can continue to assess tax, interest and late fees--and documenting it will call it to their attention. So its best to fix it properly as soon as you can.
"Is it possible to file an amendment using Turbo Tax even if I didn't use it to file my original filing?"
Yes, but it is slightly more complicated than if you had used Turbotax from the start. You start by buying Turbotax Deluxe for 2022 to install on your own computer from a CD or download. You can buy directly from Turbotax at the link for Products for previous tax years at the bottom of this page, or some third party retailers like Amazon, Staples or Best Buy might have discounted copies of the 2022 program for sale. After installing the program, you need to prepare a "new original" 2022 tax return that exactly matches the one you filed with CashApp (including the answer that you will remove the excess, even though that is wrong). Print the returns and make sure they exactly match, then "file" the 2022 return by telling the program you will mail it in. You don't actually mail it, but this will tell the program to mark it as "filed." Then save, quit, and reopen the program. Now you are ready to make the amended return. Change your answer to "I won't remove the excess", and that should generate a revised form 8889, a form 5329, and a form 1040 and 1040-X. Print, sign, include a check, and mail to the IRS. You may want to use a mailing service with tracking. You may be able to e-file the amended return instead of mailing, if you wait until after January 22--e-filing amended returns is something the IRS wants companies to start doing, but it is unclear if Turbotax will actually allow it this year (and the IRS is currently closed to all e-filing while they reprogram their system for 2023).
"If I were to file the 1040-X and 5329 how involved is that without using software?"
That depends on you. Form 5329 is simple, you just fill out part 7 where you report the excess and calculate the penalty. Form 1040-X is a summary of your tax return where you list the original info in column A (copied from your original return), the revised info column B, and the difference in column C. The only thing that will change is the addition of the 6% penalty (the excess contribution is still taxable income on line 8f, because you can't take a deduction for it if it is excess, which makes it taxable. So only the penalty is new.) Whether you can do it by hand depends on your comfort level with tax forms and instructions.
The 6% penalty that you owe for 2022 can only be addressed on your 2022 return. If you don't fix it yourself, the IRS has 3 years to catch you, and assess the penalty, with interest and an additional penalty for late payment (totaling about 1.5% per month from whenever they catch you, back to the original filing deadline of April, 2023.)
Can you tell me more about this 3 year limit? If they don't catch the issue in 3 years then they won't be able to penalize me 4 or 5 years down the road? Put another way, in this case after 4 years, assuming they didn't catch the issue themselves, the issue would then be resolved permanently in future filing years?
Additionally, would the penalty maximum be approximately ($500 * 6%) + ($500 * 6%) + ($500 * 6%) + (($500 * 1.5% ) * 36). This is 3 years of 6% penalty on the excess + 1.5% penalty for 36 months (3 years). Knowing this upper bound will help me decide if filing an amendment or just paying a penalty makes more sense
Separately, if you don't deal with the excess, there will be another penalty for 2023, and every year after that the excess remains in the account. And even if you remove the excess or "use it up" by contributing less than the maximum in some future year, the IRS won't know about it unless you document it--meaning they can continue to assess tax, interest and late fees--and documenting it will call it to their attention. So its best to fix it properly as soon as you can.
It makes sense they'd penalize me in 2023 for the excess (since would still exist) but I'm also fine with that 6% penalty so long as this would then resolve itself in 2024. Does the fact that I contributed less than the max in 2023 help here or would contributing less than the max only matter in 2024?
The statute of limitations on a particular tax return is three years, or six years if the deficiency is more than 25% of your tax bill, or forever if the IRS alleges deliberate fraud. However, if you have an ongoing excess that is never corrected, then every tax return will be wrong, meaning that as a practical matter, the statute of limitations on this mistake will never run out.
furthermore, if you had an excess in 2022 and 2023, and you think you have resolved it by being eligible for an HSA in 2024 and not contributing up to your limit, the problem is not actually resolved unless you report it on your tax return in writing to show that it is resolved. In other words, nothing that you do counts with the IRS unless you put it in writing and sign your name to it.
I can’t guarantee that you will be financially penalized if you don’t file the amended return and pay the penalty, but I can’t in good conscience, offer any other suggestion than you should follow the regulations.
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