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ephrim
Returning Member

QBI Loss

I am married filing jointly. I have two rental properties and no corporation or partnership. One shows a profit and the other a loss. Declaring the profitable one a QBI gives me a greater refund. The other one has not been a QBI before (this is the 2nd year I own it). If I declare it a QBI, my refund goes down. I am unclear if it qualifies as a QBI. But if it does, does anyone know if I am required to declare it a QBI if it is a loss?  If I must, then what do I do with the loss, count it now or carryover?

 

Thank you.

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9 Replies

QBI Loss

This is a difficult question to answer because many rules are involved. Did you ever make the safe harbor election for rental real estate? if you did did you ever treat both properties as one rental activity? if you did you must continue to treat both properties as one for QBI. the easiest way to meet the 250-hour requirement. if not each property would have to satisfy the 250-hour requirement under the safe harbor rules.

 

if you did not elect, then at some point you might have to justify to the iRS 1) why one property qualifies for QBI - the one with income but the other with the loss does not. 2) whether the rental activities are a trade or business which is required to take the QBI deduction. The safe harbor election provided means for landlords, who are not real estate professionals, to qualify their rental activities for QBI.  My opinion is that it would be inconsistent to treat one as qualifying but the other as not.

 

with both as QBI the loss of one offsets the income from the other. if you have a net loss for QBI that carries over to be used against future QBI income

******************

more on the safe harbor

If a taxpayer’s rental real estate activity meets the safe harbor, then it will be treated as a trade or business for purposes of 199A (QBI). The IRS cannot challenge the deduction. 

The safe harbor sets out requirements that must be met, and includes several exclusions and caveats

The Safe Harbor – Specific Requirements

  1. Separate books and records must be maintained to reflect income and expenses for each rental real estate enterprise (“RREE”).
  2. At least 250 hours of rental services must be performed each year with respect to each RREE.
  3. The taxpayer must maintain contemporaneous records, including time reports, logs, or similar documents, regarding the following: (i) hours of all services performed; (ii) description of all services performed; (iii) dates on which such services were performed; and (iv) who performed the services.  Such records must be made available for inspection at the request of the IRS.

Books-and-Records Requirement.

The safe harbor also contains rules that permit a taxpayer to aggregate separate properties and treat them as a single RREE .

250-Hour Requirement.

Each RREE must satisfy the 250-hour requirement. Specifically, rental services include:

  • advertising to rent or lease the real estate;
  • negotiating and executing leases;
  • verifying information contained in prospective tenant applications;
  • collection of rent;
  • daily operation, maintenance, and repair of the property, including the purchase of materials and supplies;
  • management of the real estate; and
  • supervision of employees and independent contractors.

Moreover, rental services can be performed by owners, employees, agents, and/or independent contractors of the owners. Accordingly, it will become very important that vendors who perform services that could be counted towards the 250-hour requirement provide documentation.

The above list does not purport to be exhaustive. Specifically excluded are the following activities:  financial or investment management activities, such as arranging financing; procuring property; studying and reviewing financial statements or reports on operations; improving property under §1.263(a)-3(d); and hours spent traveling to and from the real estate.

The 250-hour requirement is an annual requirement, but the safe harbor relaxes this once an RREE has been in existence for at least four years.  At that point, the 250-hour requirement need only be satisfied in any three of the five consecutive years ending with the taxable year.

Contemporaneous Documentation Requirement

The safe harbor contains specific language that a taxpayer may provide a description of the rental services performed by such employee or independent contractor, the amount of time such employee or independent contractor generally spends performing such services for the enterprise, and time, wage, or payment records for such employee or independent contractor.

Tax Return Statement

The safe harbor cannot be utilized unless the taxpayer attaches a statement to its tax return. 

If a taxpayer has more than one RREE, the statement must list the required information separately for each RREE. The statement must include the following information:

  • a description (including the address and category (commercial, residential, mixed-use)) of all rental real estate properties that are included in each RREE;
  • a description (including the address and rental category) of rental real estate properties acquired and disposed of during the taxable year; and
  • a representation that the requirements of the safe harbor have been satisfied.

Aggregating Separate Properties

As noted, the safe harbor contains a grouping rule that can both help and hurt taxpayers.  This would help taxpayers in cases where the 250-hour requirement cannot be satisfied for an individual property but can be satisfied on an aggregate basis.

Generally, a taxpayer may only aggregate “similar” properties.  For these purposes, commercial and residential properties are not treated as similar

Once a taxpayer treats interests in commercial properties or residential properties as a single RREE under the safe harbor, the taxpayer must continue to treat interests in all similar properties, including newly acquired properties, as a single RREE to the extent that the taxpayer continues to rely on the safe harbor.

However, a taxpayer that chooses to treat its interest in each residential or commercial property as a separate RREE may choose to treat its interests in all similar commercial or all similar residential properties as a single RREE in a future year.

 

 

ephrim
Returning Member

QBI Loss

Thank you for providing so much information.

 

In answer to your question, this is my second year with the property which shows a loss and it was not a QBI the first year. The one showing a profit has only been a QBI for one year and 2023 is its second year of QBI.

 

What I understand you to say is that a loss on one property offsets against profit on another in the same year. If the total net of all properties in a year is a loss, then that carries over to the next year. That makes more sense than other things I have heard.

 

But am I required to claim the QBI on the property with a loss if it hasn't been a QBI before?

PatriciaV
Expert Alumni

QBI Loss

QBI is an optional deduction for taxpayers with qualified business income. You are not required to claim QBI on any business in any year. But if you don't claim it this year, the QBI loss won't carry forward to future years.

 

Additional info: IRS FAQs on Section 199A

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Kenn
Level 3

QBI Loss

I have a similar question but slightly different circumstances. I have five rentals, three of which are profitable and two run at a loss. If I now understand correctly I am thinking I should never have included the "loss" properties as they detract from my overall QBI deduction. (Note: I still qualify with the 250 hour requirement on the three profitable properties.) My question is; now that I have previously included the loss properties can I drop them going forward or am I stuck with them in the "Enterprise"?

Thank you

ephrim
Returning Member

QBI Loss

Thank you Patricia.  You are confirming what I was thinking - that I'm not required to claim it.  But can someone provide a reason why I want the loss showing at any time, since it is a negative deduction? I can't think of one.

 

 

ephrim
Returning Member

QBI Loss

Kenn,

 

I started this because I don't know answers to those types of questions.  But, it might be a consideration to amend the old returns to remove QBI status from those properties with losses.  If you do that (and are allowed to do it) then you will not have been stuck with them as QBI's.

PatriciaV
Expert Alumni

QBI Loss

According to IRS QBI FAQ #Q28

Once an aggregation election is made, the aggregation must be consistently applied unless there has been a significant change to the facts and circumstances which would render the aggregation no longer appropriate. 

 

If the facts and circumstances change (for instance, a property is sold), you must reapply the aggregation (enterprise) rules and set up new aggregation. You can add new properties to an enterprise as long as they meet the criteria.

 

@Kenn

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Kenn
Level 3

QBI Loss

Thank you for these further details Patricia. Looking at my Form 8995 it lists the properties with a loss on lines i and ii. The properties with gain are grouped together on line iii as "Enterprise #1. Would that make a difference in me being able to drop them this year? Let me say I have no idea why they are listed separately. Maybe loss properties always list separately? Maybe I checked the wrong box, OR maybe it is because the loss properties are on a Schedule C and the others are all on Schedule E? In any event, wondering if there is a way to drop them.

Thank you 

PatriciaV
Expert Alumni

QBI Loss

Yes, if the property/business is not aggregated into an Enterprise, you may report that the business does not qualify for QBI. TurboTax asks this every year under the Section 199A topic for each property/business.

 

@Kenn 

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