Newly retired so new to estimated taxes. Married filing joint. Going to send husband's 2023 RMD to the fed for 2023 taxes before year end. After making some QCD's, the remaining RMD will cover an estimated 50% of the fed taxes owed. Didn't send estimated for Q1 or Q2 as the amt owed based on income and dividends was so low. Trying to figure out how much to send for Q3.We anticipate half as much on 2023 Schedule A due to lower medical expenses (thankfully) so will owe more tax, but is it correct that for safe harbor, we only need to send estimated payments equal to what we owed last yr plus 10% in advance, even if we suspect we will owe more due to lower schedule A? Over half of our "income" for 2023 will be from a Trad IRA to Roth conversion--the max we can convert on top of our Social Security without triggering IIRMA. This conversion will probably take place in Q4. Since this is not realized income as of Q3, is it correct that we don't need to send in any estimated tax for it in Q3? Is it reasonable and correct to send the amount for Q3 that, when added to the RMD amount, would equal 3/4 of the safe harbor amount? Example using dummy numbers: If safe harbor is $20k, RMD is $10k. 3/4 of $20k is $15k, less $10k from RMD so send $5K for Q3?? And then send last 1/4 of safe harbor amt on Jan 15? Or something different because over half of the "income" will be in Q4 from the Trad to Roth, or for some other reason? Also, saw something that we don't need to make Q4 estimated in Jan if we pay taxes on time in April. Is that right? With the large amt of income from the Trad to Roth conversion in Q4, wouldn't they want the money sooner?Note: seems hard to have TT calculate amt owed bc there are so many differences since last year and also a lot of unknowns for the rest of the year. . Thank you so much for any answers!

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Estimated tax payment

Forum|Forum|2 years ago
September 10, 2023
2 replies
1 view

Newly retired so new to estimated taxes. Married filing joint. Going to send husband's 2023 RMD to the fed for 2023 taxes before year end. After making some QCD's, the remaining RMD will cover an estimated 50% of the fed taxes owed. Didn't send estimated for Q1 or Q2 as the amt owed based on income and dividends was so low. Trying to figure out how much to send for Q3.

We anticipate half as much on 2023 Schedule A due to lower medical expenses (thankfully) so will owe more tax, but is it correct that for safe harbor, we only need to send estimated payments equal to what we owed last yr plus 10% in advance, even if we suspect we will owe more due to lower schedule A?
Over half of our "income" for 2023 will be from a Trad IRA to Roth conversion--the max we can convert on top of our Social Security without triggering IIRMA. This conversion will probably take place in Q4. Since this is not realized income as of Q3, is it correct that we don't need to send in any estimated tax for it in Q3?
Is it reasonable and correct to send the amount for Q3 that, when added to the RMD amount, would equal 3/4 of the safe harbor amount? Example using dummy numbers: If safe harbor is $20k, RMD is $10k. 3/4 of $20k is $15k, less $10k from RMD so send $5K for Q3?? And then send last 1/4 of safe harbor amt on Jan 15? Or something different because over half of the "income" will be in Q4 from the Trad to Roth, or for some other reason?
Also, saw something that we don't need to make Q4 estimated in Jan if we pay taxes on time in April. Is that right? With the large amt of income from the Trad to Roth conversion in Q4, wouldn't they want the money sooner?
Note: seems hard to have TT calculate amt owed bc there are so many differences since last year and also a lot of unknowns for the rest of the year. .

Thank you so much for any answers!

Best answer by dmertz

Expert Reviewed

Hello dmertz! I am curious about this option but not sure I understand it. Are you saying that in addition to having the required RMD from my husband's Trad IRA sent to the fed (this will cover abt half of what's owed), also send directly from his Trad IRA the other half owed? Would the non-RMD part also be considered to be spread thru the whole year? Would we send it all together or separately at year end or some sooner?

The conversion from Trad to Roth that we plan for year end is completely separate as that's my account and I'm not required to take RMDs yet.

Can you elaborate what you mean about rolling $ back into Trad IRA? I get the part about there being one such transaction per 12 mo, but what would be rolling back and why? Thank you so much for the info.

And thanks to everyone who posted answers. They are all helpful and I'm going to look into these forms today.

Let me provide an example. Let's say the QCD you want to make is is $5k, the RMD is $10k and to avoid an underpayment penalty without annualizing income on Schedule AI you need to make up a tax-payment deficiency of $20k after figuring in your Roth conversion. Your husband could make a distribution of $10k with $5k being QCD and the other $5k withheld for taxes. Assuming that you plan to convert more than $15k, you could then take a distribution paid to you from your traditional retirement account equal to the amount that you intend to convert to Roth, have $15k of that distribution withheld for taxes, replace that $15k with other funds, then indirectly convert to Roth within 60 days the entire amount distributed from your traditional retirement account. Because conversions to Roth are disregarded with respect to the one-per-12-months rollover limitation, you avoid any involvement with that limitation. The amount withheld between the two distributions will be $20k, the intended QCD will be made, the RMD will be satisfied and you will have converted to Roth the intended amount with nothing left over.

The amount withheld for taxes (but not estimated tax payments) is subtracted from your tax liability before the remainder of your tax liability is divided among the four tax quarters . Estimated tax payments are then applied to the corresponding tax quarters to see if you have any quarterly underpayment. The effect is that tax withholding at any time during the year is divided among the four tax quarters, so tax withholding late in the year can make up for underpayment early in the year while estimated tax payments cannot.

Bsch4477

Level 15

Income from your IRA distribution is considered by the IRS to have been withdrawn quarterly equally throughout the year so if that is most of your income you don’t have to worry about estimated payments. Just be sure that your amount withheld is at least as much as last year’s tax liability.

ArchesNationalParkAuthor

Level 4

Thanks for your reply. The RMD will only cover about half of anticipated fed tax due, so how much do we send for Q3, given that we didn't send any for Q1 or 2 as we thought at that time the RMD would cover most of it.

NCperson

Level 15

Thank you NCperson! Thanks for the info that using IRA money to pay taxes due on a Trad to Roth conversion is less financially beneficial. I have made several Trad to Roth conversions in prior years when our income was low and again last year. So far, always paid the tax w non-IRA $ for this exact reason. Hope to this year as well!

To Anyone:

Do I have it correct that regardless of whether you pay estimated taxes in four equal quarters or use the annualized plan (Schedule A1), that the total amount paid will be the same. (basically the difference between the four equal quarters and annual plans is that one has the same payment each Q and the other varies based on actual quarterly data)?
Also is it true that estimated taxes due for current year are based solely on prior year data, not what you are actually getting during the current year (much more, much less income, deductions)?

Thank you to EVERYONE who has responded. Greatly appreciate all the help and info shared. I feel ready to make decisions and move fw for 2023 and, hopefully, for changing situations in years to come.

@ArchesNationalPark

bullet one - yes, the total will be the same. and that is because Total tax - estimated payments - withholdings = refund / still owe on April 15.

bullet 2 - not true. Very simply and generally, there is no penalty interest as long as the estimates + withholding equals 100% of last year's tax liability (or 110% for high income earners) or 90% of this years tax liability, whichever is lower, OR the amount due on April 15 is less than $1000.

So for example, last year the tax paid was $20,000 and this year's tax estimate is $30,000. There is no interest penalty as long as the estimated payments and withholdings are the lesser of $20,000 (100% of last year) or $27,000 (90% of this year), OR the amount due on April 15 less than $1000. . So as long as the withholdings and estimates are at least $27,000, there is no interest due.

But the IRS wants that calculation completed quarterly! which is the headache of Form 2210 and 2210ai!

look at the flow chart on the top of the form:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f2210.pdf

(if you decide to play with the form, you are going to check Box C in Part II)

Mike9241

Level 15

if your adjusted gross income for 2022 was over $150,000, then the safe harbor is that 110% of your 2022 tax, otherwise it's 100%, must be paid in through withholding and estimated tax payments. Generally, the law requires that 1/4 of this number be paid in each quarter 4/15/,6/15,9/15 1/15 of following year. if not, then to avoid or reduce penalties for underpayment in the earlier quarters you must compute your taxes for each quarter using the annualized income installment method. see form 2210 page 3. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f2210.pdf the law gives you the option of treating withholding as if 1/4 was paid in for each quarter regardless of when actually withheld. there is also the option to use the actual amount withheld in each quarter.

"Also, saw something that we don't need to make Q4 estimated in Jan if we pay taxes on time in April. Is that right" No to skip the 1/15 estimate the return must be filed and balance paid by 1/31/2024