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xmargman
Returning Member

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

I have the CD/Download version and I can go to forms and open the 4797 Form then go to Part II line 10 but the form does not let me enter anything in line 10 section.   I can enter numbers on line 14,15 and 16  which will total on line 17...   but I need to enter MTM total gains/loses on line 10. only to total on line 17.

 

I cannot figure out what I am doing wrong

 

 

GeorgeM777
Expert Alumni

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

It could be that your method needs a little adjustment.   If you right click in a box on line 10 of Form 4797, you should see a pop-up window where you can select the option to override.  Selecting override should allow you to enter the amounts you need to enter.  When you override in order to enter amounts not only on line 10 but any other form in TurboTax, you will void the TurboTax guarantee.  Thus, when entering information in this fashion, just double check that it is accurate.

 

While you may already know this, for securities traders who have elected mark-to-market accounting (Section 475(f) of the Internal Revenue Code) IRS instructions for Form 4797 provide that the security trader must attach a statement to their return using the same format as line 10, showing the details of each transaction. Moreover, the statement must separately show and identify securities or commodities held and marked to market at the end of the year.  TurboTax does not support the creation or importation of the trader's statement.  Thus, you will need to separately prepare your statement and attach it to your return. Your completed return will need to be paper mailed to the IRS.  

 

@xmargman 

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xmargman
Returning Member

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

@GeorgeM777    Thank you for the quick response   In messing with the Right click and entering information I was able to back track and figure out the following which allowed me to enter the information without the override.   the key part of this is number 6.   again thank you for your help it got me to the correct spot!

 

  1. Using your CD or downloaded version of TurboTax, open or continue to your return
  2. Under the Business Items section select Start or Update beside Sale of Business Property
  3. Select Sales of business or rental property that you haven’t already reported
  4. Select Yes or No to question Do all of the following apply to the property you sold?
  5. Enter the details of the sale
  6. On the page Tell Us About Your Sale, select the Type of sale (To report on Form 4797 in Section II, select Held one year or less)
  7. Enter the amount reported on Form 1099-B on the next input screen
  8. To view Form 4797, go to Forms Mode by selecting the Form icon on the toolbar
zning
Returning Member

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

@gmtrader1  Thanks for your reply, in Part 1V of 3115, Section 481(a) Adjustment, it not only ask you to enter the amount of adjustment, but also asked to attach a summary of computation and explaination of the method use to determine the adjust ment, any idea how should we go about it?  is a spread sheet showing all the open positions at year end which shows the unrealized gain/loss at 12/31 to be used as MTM suffice or there's any specfic format of that summary that IRS would be looking for?  

RobertB4444
Employee Tax Expert

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

That spreadsheet should be just fine.  But make sure that the entries are easy to read and follow.  Confusing the IRS is never a good idea.

 

@zning 

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First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

Hi nvrredy. Can I have your help for filling 3115 for the first year. I have some question. A day trader must file 3115 for 2024 tax season for 2024 year if he want to be as day trader, am I right?

for a day trader individual, in the part Tax year change begins: would be 1/1/2024 but I do not know how many years I will be doing day trader so what can be Tax year of change ends?

I am individual what are the answers of part II 4&5, 13 ?Should I file Section 481(a)?

How about Schedule A? If yes should be filled, what is the present method and proposed method for a day trader?

What is the answer part I OF SCHULE A , #5?

Please lead me to file 3115

 

 

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

Sam

Thanks for asking. I am only writing you what I did. there is no guarantee that neither they are correct nor are applicable to you. Please do your own due diligence. This is only advice.

 

A day trader must file trader status selection with a letter and filled and signed form 3115 before tax filing dead line. For 2024, you must file before Apr 15  as an individual, or Mar 15 if you are business.

When you want to revoke, you must file revoke request with a letter before corresponding tax filing deadline.

 

3115 Part II answers depend upon what boxes you checked on top of Form 3115. For me it was individual and third box (accounting method)  other; sec 375(f) mark to market.

So correspondingly for Part (II) 4,5 & 13 answer is NO.

 

There is a sample 3115 from one GREGORY L. BUHROW, CPA PC  on line. You should get it by searching his name. Otherwise send me a note at nvrreddy917 at hotmail.

 

Filing of 481(a) is tricky. You have to calculate your assets as of 1/1/2024 and enter that amount in Part IV (26).

I know there are places where you can calculate those online. Otherwise you may have to call turbo tax help.

I entered 0 because I am staring fresh on 1/1/23.

 

I hope what I wrote here will help you.

Thanks

 

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

@Sam Hopi The election and 3115 must be filed with your 2023 return on or before its original due date. If you can't file by 4/15/2024, the election and 3115 can be included with a timely filed extension.

tax year of change ends 12/31/2024

part II line 4 you should be able to answer. will you trading business end in 2024 yes or no?

part 11 line 5  section 381 is only for corporations which you are not.

part II line 13 is NO you are not changing your overall method of accounting. something like reporting all income and expense items on the accrual basis method vs the present case basis method.

 

the 481(a) adjustment is the difference between the market value of your trading securities on 12/31/2023 vs their tax basis. a year-end broker's statement probably has both so you can attach it as support. be wary. review it. If you trade publicly traded partnerships, your broker's statement probably won't have your tax basis. for those you may need the k-1. also, some dividends you received in 2023 might be a return of capital that reduces your tax basis in the security and likely won't be reflected on the December statement.   

***

a negative 481(a) loss must be taken into account in doing your 2024 return a positive 481(a) must be spread over 4 years unless $50K or less see part IV question 28 

*****************

as note Schedule A does not apply 

********************

besides the 3115 a statement must go along

The statement should include the following information:
That you're making an election under section 475(f);
The first tax year for which the election is effective (that is, the tax year for which a timely election is being made); and
The trade or business for which you're making the election.

****************************************************

Automatic change requests. Except if instructed differently,
you must file Form 3115 under the automatic change procedures
in duplicate as follows.
• Attach the original Form 3115 to the filer's timely filed
(including extensions) federal income tax return for the year of
change. The original Form 3115 attachment does not need to be
signed.
• File a copy of the signed Form 3115 (duplicate copy) with the
IRS National Office at the address provided in the Address Chart
for Form 3115, later, no earlier than the first day of the year of
change and no later than the date the original is filed with the
federal income tax return for the year of change. This signed
Form 3115 may be a photocopy. For more on the signature
requirement, see Name(s) and Signature(s), later. Alternatively,
the duplicate copy of the signed Form 3115 may be submitted by
fax.
The IRS does not send acknowledgments of receipt for automatic change request

see 3115 instructions for where to file the copy

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i3115.pdf 

********************************************

if you are unsure of anything engage a pro. Blowing the election can be extremely costly.  

*************************

Please note I have not recently filed a 3315 for a trader so the above is based on reading the  3115 instructions and what I did for a trader a long time ago. the form has changed since then. 

you might want to read IRS PUB 550 (2022) section called "Special Rules for Traders in Securities." 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p550.pdf  starting on page 67

 

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

Hi Mike and thanks for your response.  All my words are about Mark-to Mark Day Trader. I want to start day trading 1/1/2024 as individual. On the top of the 3115 asks: Tax year of change begins, for me it is 1/1/2024 but I am not sure if I want to be as day trader for 2025, 2026 so what would be for Tax year of change ends??

You said: 

If you can't file by 4/15/2024, the election and 3115 can be included with a timely filed extension.

tax year of change ends 12/31/2024. I confused about 12/31/2024, extension due date is usually around Oct 16 not the end of the year. Let me know, If I want to take extension, form 3115 should file on Oct or when I apply for extension on April 15?

 

  1. What another document should be attached for duplicate when I mail it? Should I attach 1040 all papers along 3115 when I mail it to different address? what is the statement I heard it about that comes with 3115? Please notify me!
  2. Should I get an approval from the IRS? How can I get it?
  3. Do I  sign 3115 when I e-file it that apparently should be attached to my 1040 tax return 2023 as a pdf? Right?

4. On Part ll  line 7a,  my  answer is Yes and for 7b my answer is  Not under exam ! Am I right?

             

 

 

5. What is the answer of line 25 section IV 481(a) ? Yes or No . Since I do not know about Cut-off basis if it includes for a Day Trader?

6. If I enter Yes, it does not ask me the amount of line 26 but when I enter No, ask me the amount!!!

If I will start 1/1/2024 as Day trader what would be answers above question?

As you mentioned:     the 481(a) adjustment is the difference between the market value of your trading securities on 12/31/2023 vs their tax basis. What does it mean if I want to be a day trader as of 1/1/2024!!

A year-end broker's statement probably has both so you can attach it as support. be wary. review it. If you trade publicly traded partnerships, your broker's statement probably won't have your tax basis. for those you may need the k-1. also, some dividends you received in 2023 might be a return of capital that reduces your tax basis in the security and likely won't be reflected on the December statement.   

***

a negative 481(a) loss must be taken into account in doing your 2024 return a positive 481(a) must be spread over 4 years unless $50K or less see part IV question 28 . I need your help to better understand it.

For me who wants to start 1/1/2024, does it matter my assets value at the 12/31/2023? May I have an example please by any numbers.

 

How about expenses? Should  I  file Sch C and just enter expenses  and your net income will be a negative amount? 

 

would be greatly appreciated it!

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

Hi Mike and thanks for your response.  All my words are about Mark-to Mark Day Trader. I want to start day trading 1/1/2024 as individual. On the top of the 3115 asks: Tax year of change begins, for me it is 1/1/2024 but I am not sure if I want to be as day trader for 2025, 2026 so what would be for Tax year of change ends??

 

 

I thought you wanted the Mark-to-Market election for 2024 which must be made with a timely filed 2023 1040 or extension for it. There is no election/3115 to be just a day trader. Rather you are a day trader if you meet at least most of the criteria below.  A day trader does not have to make the M-T-M election. If not, then trades will be capital gain or loss and subject to the wash sale rules. So you really can't file 475(f) Mark-to-Market election/3115 until the tax year preceding the tax year you want it to go into effect and also assuming you'll qualify as a trader for that year. 

You must seek to profit from daily market movements in the prices of securities and not from dividends, interest, or capital appreciation;
Your activity must be substantial; and
You must carry on the activity with continuity and regularity.
The following facts and circumstances should be considered in determining if your activity is a securities trading business:

Typical holding periods for securities bought and sold;
The frequency and dollar amount of your trades during the year;
The extent to which you pursue the activity to produce income for a livelihood; and
The amount of time you devote to the activity.
If the nature of your trading activities doesn't qualify as a business, you're considered an investor and not a trader. It doesn't matter whether you call yourself a trader or a day trader, you're an investor.

 

in one court case a taxpayer was deemed a trader only doing 720 trades a year but he was consistent in how he went about it. Generally, tax pros recommend a minimum of 1000 trades a year.

 

As a trader your trading expenses go on schedule C. As an investor, investment expenses are not deductible at least through the end of 2025

 

as to your other questions, for now, I'll skip them because I'm not sure whether you want the M-T-M

election. Only traders can makle the M-T-M election not investors. 

 

 

           

 

 

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

I thought you wanted the Mark-to-Market election for 2024 which must be made with a timely filed 2023 1040 or extension for it. ( YES, this is what I told on the top of my words but I do not know why you used past verb for 2024) 

 

 

There is no election/3115 to be just a day trader.  What does it mean?  You mean day trader does not need to file 3115?!!!!!!!!!

 

 Rather you are a day trader if you meet at least most of the criteria below.  A day trader does not have to make the M-T-M election.                     (  Again I am confused what do you mean?)

 

 If not, then trades will be capital gain or loss and subject to the wash sale rules. So you really can't file 475(f) Mark-to-Market election/3115 until the tax year preceding the tax year you want it to go into effect and also assuming you'll qualify as a trader for that year. 

 

I do not know that you are confused or me.

I want to start day trading from 1/1/2024 and based on instruction I have to file 3115 to get permission from IRS through 2023 tax return. Am I right? But, per your explanation I do not need to file 3115. So, who needs file 3115 then? Who file 3115 475(f) mark-to-mark? please give me example with years( do not use preceding or like that just the number of years, like 2023,2024) and hypothetical numbers.

I already read all 3115 instruction that who is a day trader. 

option 2:

If I have had trading as a business in 2023 and never filed 3115 and I have a loss around $10000, should file 3115 before April 2024? 

I understand better by numbers and years.

Per your explanation day traders do not need file 3115 at all. I do not think so, sorry

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

without the 475(f) M-T-M election you are a day trader if you meet the criteria posted. There is no election. if audited the IRS will go over your trading activity to see if you qualify, The 475(f) election's only purpose is to change the accounting method for recognizing when and how trading gains/losses are recognized and reported.  some traders make the election other don't. 

 

a day trader without the 475(f) election only advantage is that trading expenses are deductible on Schedule C. Investors get no federal deduction at all.   also, without the election, you have capital gains and losses and are subject to the wash sale rules. With 475 (f) your trading gains or losses are ordinary income or loss not subject to wash sales rules. With 475(f) at year-end, you adjust from cost/tax basis to market value picking up as income or loss the net unrealized gains and losses. With 475(f) at the beginning of the first year the difference between the market value on the last day of the previous year and their cost/tax basis is the 481a adjustment.  

 

I really can't explain it any better so if you still do not understand please consult a tax pro

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

Thanks Mike, here you explained:  without the 475(f) M-T-M election you are a day trader if you meet the criteria posted. There is no election. if audited the IRS will go over your trading activity to see if you qualify, The 475(f) election's only purpose is to change the accounting method for recognizing when and how trading gains/losses are recognized and reported.  some traders make the election other don't. 

In this case,  assume I had a loss in 2023 and never file d 3115 or made any election along with 2022 tax return, can I use my loss as a ordinary loss and use form 4797 line II in my 2023 tax return and file sch C apply for home office and more than 50% business of new computer?

 

 

And here:  With 475 (f) your trading gains or losses are ordinary income or loss not subject to wash sales rules. With 475(f) at year-end, you adjust from cost/tax basis to market value picking up as income or loss the net unrealized gains and losses. With 475(f) at the beginning of the first year the difference between the market value on the last day of the previous year and their cost/tax basis is the 481a adjustment.  

 

In this case may I have an example please by numbers for 481a, you know a day trader should not have an opened transaction at the end of the year so what does mean this ADJUSTMENT for 481a?,

and what happens for form 4797 line II?

 

I stuck in gray area just help me to get it out from, thanks for your help.

 

 

 

First year active trader (Mark-to-market), how to enter 481(a) adjustment?

In this case may I have an example please by numbers for 481a, you know a day trader should not have an opened transaction at the end of the year so what does mean this ADJUSTMENT for 481a?,

and what happens for form 4797 line II?

 

 say you made a timely election in 2023 to use the M-T-M election for 2024. At the end of 2023, you have no open positions in trading securities (not every person who refers to themselves as a day trader actually closes out all positions every day and at year-end) then the  481a is $0 because the Market value of open trading positions is zero and their tax basis is zero.  

 

as previously noted gains and losses on trading securities with the M-T-M election are ordinary income/loss report on Part II, line 10 of FORM 4797. trading expenses would go on schedule C. 

 

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