I previously worked abroad many years ago. Part of my comp was paid into an off-shore trust. I paid tax on the income in the year earned. I also paid tax on earnings in the trust in all relevant years. Finally, I paid tax on FX gains to the high water mark. As such, I believe all tax liabilities on income were met historically. In 2021, I requested as beneficiary that the funds on deposit be distributed to me and the trusts dissolved. I don't believe these trusts qualified as tax-favored foreign retirement trusts or tax-favored foreign nonretirement savings trusts, as described in section 5 of Rev. Proc. 2020-17. However, the distributions were neither gifts nor untaxed income.
What do I need, if anything, to do by of reporting the transaction or otherwise?
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@Curious One , thank you for an excellent explanation of the facts of the case. I understand now what you have done and plan to do.
(a) I would therefore conclude and indeed , concur with you that there was never a need for form 3520-A and no 3520 for recognizing the already taxed amounts when transferred to possession. Any amounts not so taxed can be viewed as Investment income ( as you have done in earlier years).
(b) It would be good idea to have all the back-up documents / returns to prove that most has been already taxed by US already and it is remainder/growth that you are now recognizing.
(c) Not being a lawyer , I am bit troubled by the way this source income and its growth has been handled. This is because one usually maintains the same character of the income as reported everywhere or at least to nearest equivalent. Here , in the UK it behaved a retirement account ( tax advantaged retirement savings ) or its equivalent 401(K) , where as in the USA you have treated kind of like a cross between a Roth and a short term investment account. I am of course here that for US purposes , the original yearly amounts ( a part of your salary / consideration) was recognized as wages but for UK purposes these were tax advantaged and therefore legally excluded. So UK never got to tax these with the promise that these will be taxed if you took the benefits while in the UK ( just 401s in the USA. This is where I am troubled and perhaps I should suggest that you could consider talking to a tax lawyer/ pleader in the UK for the UK portion,
Another point that I forgot to make is that I am aware of the use of 8833 for disclosing treaty based positions , especially when US expats retirement accounts in the UK ( private / money schemes etc ) and can exclude some of the amounts from US taxes , but in your case it seems that you have taken all the steps and essentially recognized the whole kitten-kabootle and so it is only the UK issue here--no?
Hopefully I have answered your question.
Is there more I can do for you ?
pk
@Curious One , as I understand your post --
1. you are talking about a revocable trust for the purposes of investing/ growing
2. you are sole owner and trustee of the trust
3. You have recognized the growths every year ( what form did you file to recognize this )
4. you have used proper exchange rate to recognize the earnings.
5. The only special part here is that the trust is foreign trust ( instead of being formed under US / State laws.
6. Now you want to liquidate the trust and the questions is does this need to be reported on form 3520 or any other forms?
I am assuming that you have been reporting the foreign trust on form 3520-A as US owner of a foreign trust. If you did not then , I don;t how you recognized the earnings. Here is what I see from the IRS--> https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i3520a.pdf
I am also assuming that you have been filing FATCA / FBAR forms all these years -- yes ?
Is there more I can do for you ?
@pk Thank you for your initial thoughts and questions. Please note the following:
1. you are talking about a revocable trust for the purposes of investing/ growing. There are actually two trusts. They're not identical, but for purposes of this analysis, I think it's safe to assume the conclusions reached for one will apply equally to the other. In each relevant tax year, my employer created a trust and contributed funds to it for my benefit. There were UK on-shore tax benefits to both my employer and myself. The preamble to the T/A states that it is irrevocable. The trust is titled as [MY NAME] Retirement Benefits Scheme [I or II].
2. you are sole owner and trustee of the trust. I am neither the owner nor the trustee. It was established between my employer at the time, as Principal Employer, and a trust company, as trustee. I was referred to as Member, but not Beneficiary per se. However, I do have the power to request distributions under certain circumstances, some of which are described below. Beneficiaries are defined broadly as one would expect.
3. You have recognized the growths every year (what form did you file to recognize this). My accountant at the time included these amounts in my tax return. Depending on the year in question, amounts were reflected in Schedule B, Schedule D or under Miscellaneous Income. I know that each year I gave her BOY and EOY balances as well as FX rates to apply in recognition of unrealized income.
4. you have used proper exchange rate to recognize the earnings. Yes.
5. The only special part here is that the trust is foreign trust (instead of being formed under US / State laws. I don't think that's right based on other details provided throughout this reply.
6. Now you want to liquidate the trust and the questions is does this need to be reported on form 3520 or any other forms? I have the right to request distributions as retirement benefit under the scheme, subject to providing acceptable evidence that I am no longer tax resident in the UK. They can be taken as an annuity or a lump sum. If I were to be tax resident in the UK, significant withholdings would be in issue. The contributions were shielded from UK income tax, but not US income tax. The income was declared in the US at the time and offset by accrued FTC. There are definitions in the T/A specifying provisions of UK tax law determining Eligible Employee, Employment Income and Relevant Benefits, among other things, but I don't believe these terms and provisions tie in any way to those described as the basis for exemption from filing under Form 3520.
I am assuming that you have been reporting the foreign trust on form 3520-A as US owner of a foreign trust. If you did not then, I don't how you recognized the earnings. Here is what I see from the IRS--> https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i3520a.pdf. I don't believe either Form 3520 or Form 3520a has been filed in any tax year. As noted above, the income elements were included in my tax returns and other disclosures were made via Form 8938. I received a notice from the trustee in 2012 advising that I may be obliged to file Form 8938 or the FBAR as well as other potential reporting obligations. While not dispositive, there was no explicit reference to Form 3520.
I am also assuming that you have been filing FATCA / FBAR forms all these years -- yes? I have included these accounts among my Form 8938 disclosures, but not FBAR, based on the reasoning that I did not own or control the accounts.
See, Comparison of Form 8938 and FBAR Requirements | Internal Revenue Service (irs.gov), and specifically with respect to the FBAR:
Financial interest: you are the owner of record or holder of legal title; the owner of record or holder of legal title is your agent or representative; you have a sufficient interest in the entity that is the owner of record or holder of legal title.
Signature authority: you have authority to control the disposition of the assets in the account by direct communication with the financial institution maintaining the account.
Thank you for any further thoughts you may have given these additional details.
@Curious One , thank you for an excellent explanation of the facts of the case. I understand now what you have done and plan to do.
(a) I would therefore conclude and indeed , concur with you that there was never a need for form 3520-A and no 3520 for recognizing the already taxed amounts when transferred to possession. Any amounts not so taxed can be viewed as Investment income ( as you have done in earlier years).
(b) It would be good idea to have all the back-up documents / returns to prove that most has been already taxed by US already and it is remainder/growth that you are now recognizing.
(c) Not being a lawyer , I am bit troubled by the way this source income and its growth has been handled. This is because one usually maintains the same character of the income as reported everywhere or at least to nearest equivalent. Here , in the UK it behaved a retirement account ( tax advantaged retirement savings ) or its equivalent 401(K) , where as in the USA you have treated kind of like a cross between a Roth and a short term investment account. I am of course here that for US purposes , the original yearly amounts ( a part of your salary / consideration) was recognized as wages but for UK purposes these were tax advantaged and therefore legally excluded. So UK never got to tax these with the promise that these will be taxed if you took the benefits while in the UK ( just 401s in the USA. This is where I am troubled and perhaps I should suggest that you could consider talking to a tax lawyer/ pleader in the UK for the UK portion,
Another point that I forgot to make is that I am aware of the use of 8833 for disclosing treaty based positions , especially when US expats retirement accounts in the UK ( private / money schemes etc ) and can exclude some of the amounts from US taxes , but in your case it seems that you have taken all the steps and essentially recognized the whole kitten-kabootle and so it is only the UK issue here--no?
Hopefully I have answered your question.
Is there more I can do for you ?
pk
@pk All good. Thanks very much for your further insights.
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