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I am considering early retirement and want to understand the implications of taking an optional lump sum distribution.
For context, my current employer uses Fidelity to administer benefits. I am eligible for early retirement. I am married, so any lump sum requires documented spousal consent. I have two different pension plans as well as a 401(k), all with this same employer. I also have unrelated traditional and Roth IRAs that are outside of the company plans. One of the employer sponsored pension plans stopped receiving credits on December 31, 2004, and I have the option of receiving a lump sum distribution on that pension after leaving the job and prior to age 72, or I could decide to start receiving a stream of monthly payments at a chosen time in that same period.
Regarding calculation of the lump sum value:
Discussion with Fidelity regarding the value of the lump sum distribution leads me to think that a Present Value calculation is performed using [what Fidelity referred to as] 417(e) PPA interest rates with a four month lookback. Presuming that this is about a Present Value calculation, the Discount Rate to be used in that calculation is needed. While I wait for whatever Fidelity will send via mail, I found the following.
Regarding taxes owed on a lump sum, how is that determined?
Do I have the option to roll over the lump sum into either a Traditional or a Roth IRA?
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if you are exiting the company and have the option of taking a lump sum, you must also have the option to have the company roll it into your IRA directly.
if your company is not offering this, don't do it.
you really need the services of a financial planner because in some ways were working in the dark as to what is best. if you take a lump sum, the taxable portion adds to your ordinary income and is taxed. you may be able to use 10-year averaging on a lump sum distribution. use part I of form 4872 to see if you qualify.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4972.pdf or you can roll it into an IRA tax free and RMD distributions would have to start based on current law by 4/1 of the year following the year you turn 72 (age 72 distribution). if you do this rather than taking a distribution in the year you turn 72 you would also have to take a second RMD distribution before the end of the year (age 73 distribution). there afeter an RMD each year. a direct rollover (trustee to trustee) is best because there is no withholding. if you got the money, you have 60 days to put it into an IRA. miss the deadline and your taxed on the entire taxable amount. if taxes are withheld and you don't make it up with personal funds then the withholding is treated as a taxable distribution. rolling into a ROTH IRA would make the entire taxable portion of the distribution taxable. or you can take your employers offer of an annuity. IRC 417 is only for purposes of determining the minimum amount of a survivor annuity for a defined benefit pension plan when there's an election to waive a qualified joint and survivor annuity. the value of your account is based on the plan documents so the "minimum could be higher". the human resource department of your employer or Fidelity can tell you the value. we can't just too much info were missing.
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A QJSA is when retirement benefits are paid as a life annuity (a series of payments, usually monthly, for life) to the participant and a survivor annuity over the life of the participant’s surviving spouse (or a former spouse, child or dependent who must be treated as a surviving spouse under a QDRO) following the participant’s death.
The amount paid to the surviving spouse must be no less than 50% and no greater than 100% of the amount of the annuity paid during the participant’s life. Alternatively, a participant who waives a QJSA may elect to have a qualified optional survivor annuity (QOSA). The amount paid to the surviving spouse under a QOSA is equal to the certain percentage (as chosen) of the amount of the annuity payable during the participant’s life.
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we know nothing about your finances. you are just looking at what appears to be a small piece. using a financial planner is advisable especially if you have a substantial net worth.
I do appreciate the replies, however I'm not asking for suggestions regarding what others may think is best for me. I am asking how to do a calculation.
What would help is to have an Excel formula for calculating the lump sum amount based on the three segments called out in the “Minimum Present Value Segment Rates” table. I've never seen PV calculated as three segments with three interest rates.
I think I found something helpful on slides 11 through 18 here (but it appears to be from 2014): https://www.asppa.org/sites/asppa.org/files/PDFs/Education/Conferences/AAS14/Session%203%20-%20IRS%2...
I'll eventually find the answer and post.
@Gordon3, Did you ever find this magical formula? I am working through the exact same scenario that you have laid out in your post almost 2 years ago. Our company has made it impossible to find a calculation but meanwhile claims they are following a national standard for this calculation. Any help would be appreciated.
see if IRS PUB 575 helps
Thanks for the suggested reading but that just explains tax liability. I am looking for the formula that tells you how much your pension payout will. From what I am told, there is a standard formula that is not company specific and is used across all pension payout.
Sorry, but no, I did not find a single universal formula that is used to calculate the value of a lump sum pension distribution.
It has also been a while, so I might err, but I will state what comes to mind. I suspect no such universal formula is to be found, but it would enable folks make better informed decisions if it did.
If you want a deterministic approach that can be used to enable a better informed decision, good luck. Please share if you do find it. I may very well be wrong, but here is what I think, and insightful correction is certainly welcome. Sharing some of what transpired in my case might help others, and I hope things go well for them.
Based on several online sources, (including Investopedia) it seems that each company has some leeway in creating a formula for determining a lump sum distribution, and whether they might do some annual or monthly or other periodic means of providing ongoing estimates of a lump sum distribution. A company may reserve the right to change some aspects while benefits are still being earned. Each company’s plan might also mention that if they use something such as the Minimum present value segment rates published by the IRS, which gives some aspect genuinely beyond the employer’s control, and that proves to be a handy way to avoid being forthcoming, or perhaps to avoid revealing the applicable formula.
My Fidelity NetBenefits account allowed for me to model (online) various scenarios while warning that the answers really didn’t count, and the folks at both my company and at Fidelity were not forthcoming about how the calculations were done in the formula they use. I also requested a personalized pre-retirement estimate that took a few weeks and looked rather much like what the online tool generated, including the caveats about not relying on the answer. After the fact, I can say that the answers were reasonable, but there is clearly no intent to provide clarity before deciding. The part about who bears any risk did seem rather clear. The tool (and report provided by Fidelity) was a bit clunky in that the two separate pensions required much of the information to be entered separately, and Fidelity initially told me that I should be able to claim each pension on separate dates, which later proved to have been an error.
If you were able to know that interest rates will be lower next year, waiting may improve the value of your lump sum, but it also likely depends on the formula used by the company and when the company applies the formula and rates to your case. Your company should be able and may be willing to tell you how often the lump sum calculations are estimated for folks that are still with the company, and something of that nature would seem necessary at least annually to determine the liabilities and funded ratio for the plan. I may be off in the specifics, but I think there are ERISA related requirements and IRS Form 5500 that suggest at least an annual calculation is needed, but perhaps there is a way to determine or acceptably estimate the aggregate liabilities without really knowing exactly how much each participant might be owed. After all, the company does not know when each person will retire or whether they might choose a lump sum.
I found that one of my two pensions actually had a set amount that I would be paid, and to my surprise, Fidelity and my company’s benefits representative confirmed that I’d get the same monthly payment regardless of when I started taking payments. The online modeling and snail mail report also showed this unexpected outcome. That led me to want to start those payments immediately and initiate payments from another (newer) plan at a later date (which I would have chosen somewhat based on the way interest rates played out, somewhat like a bondholder might do). Sadly, the company had changed the plan rules after most of the benefits were earned but a year or so before I started payments, and the new rules indicated that the while the two pensions were separately earned under different plans, payments had to commence at the same time. Given that, I went ahead and initiated payments, and now I know what I will receive. I cannot claim that this is the optimal approach, but a fixed monthly payment stream that is not affected by varying interest rates was about the only matter that was genuinely clear.
Good luck, and please do share if you find the magic formula.
One link from my post above did not work. Hope this is better.
https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/minimum-present-value-segment-rates
I think Intuit or the IRS does not like that link.
First part is "https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/"
The rest is "minimum-pre[product key removed]nt-rates"
Where it says "[product key removed]", there should instead be "minimum-" followed by "present-" followed by"value-", followed by "segment-" followed by "rates".
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