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joshwats
Returning Member

How is this possible?

I'm a pastor, married filing jointly, on a single income, with 4 young kids.  This is what TT's summary says:

"After applying your deductions, your taxable income was $41,136. Based on this, your total tax before credits was $19,020, which includes self-employment tax of $14,663."

 

How is my total tax before credits $19,020?!?

 

How am I in a tax bracket where I'm being taxed 46% of my taxable income?

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14 Replies
SharonD007
Expert Alumni

How is this possible?

Were you paid on a W-2 or a 1099-Misc or 1099-NEC?  Did you have a housing allowance that should have been excluded from your income.  Please provide more information so we can assist you.  Please clarify.

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joshwats
Returning Member

How is this possible?

I got a W-2 from the church I work at for 58k, a 1099-MISC for 20k for royalties from a homeschool curriculum, and a 1099-NEC for $900 for being a guest speaker.  So 79k total.  Housing allowance $23,400.

 

I just can't grasp how, if after deductions, my taxable income is reduced from 79k to 41k, I still have taxes of 19k before credits.  That's a tax rate of 46%!

 

Vanessa A
Expert Alumni

How is this possible?

To have $14,663 in self-employment taxes, it seems as though the majority of your income is being counted as Self-Employment Income. 

Your housing allowance is not taxable for regular federal income taxes, but it is taxed the 15.3% Self-Employment Tax.  After you entered your W-2, if you selected Clergy, you would have been given the option to choose which income should be taxed with self-employment.  If you chose to pay self-employment tax on your housing allowance and wages, then this would explain why you have such a high amount of self-employment taxes. 

If SE taxes were withheld, be sure that you choose to only have the SE taxes withheld on your Housing Allowance if it is included in your W-2 and you did not have Medicare and social security taxes withheld already on the housing allowance. 

 

 

 

 

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joshwats
Returning Member

How is this possible?

Yes, clearly it's all being considered self-employment.  But why?  It's nothing like owning a business.  I was a guest speaker once, serve as a pastor for a job, and get some royalties from a curriculum I wrote.  How is our system set up to tax such a person as myself for this type of work 46% on 41k taxable income?   A pastor with 4 kids and making 41k is taxed almost half his income?!

 

You said,

'If SE taxes were withheld, be sure that you choose to only have the SE taxes withheld on your Housing Allowance if it is included in your W-2 and you did not have Medicare and social security taxes withheld already on the housing allowance.' 

 

Please explain the above sentence a little more.  Thank you.

How is this possible?


@joshwats wrote:

Yes, clearly it's all being considered self-employment.  But why?  It's nothing like owning a business.  I was a guest speaker once, serve as a pastor for a job, and get some royalties from a curriculum I wrote.  How is our system set up to tax such a person as myself for this type of work 46% on 41k taxable income?   A pastor with 4 kids and making 41k is taxed almost half his income?!

 

You said,

'If SE taxes were withheld, be sure that you choose to only have the SE taxes withheld on your Housing Allowance if it is included in your W-2 and you did not have Medicare and social security taxes withheld already on the housing allowance.' 

 

Please explain the above sentence a little more.  Thank you.


Start with this organization, they are ecumenical and very good on pastor taxes and church finances.

https://www.ecfa.org/ProductDownload.aspx?ProductID=361

 

Also read this.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/members-of-the-clergy

 

To try and briefly summarize:

 

Regular employees pay 7.65% for social security and medicare, which is matched by their employer who also pays 7.65%.  Therefore, self-employed people, who are both employee and employer, pay the full 15.3% self-employment tax (which covers the same thing, social security and medicare).

 

Due to a number of court cases and common law precedents, clergy are considered self-employed for some tax purposes, including self-employment tax.  Your church should not withhold social security or medicare tax from your wages.  Your W-2 should have your wages in box 1, federal income tax withholding is optional and will be in box 2 (if any), and boxes 3-6 should be blank -- zero social security or medicare withholding.  If you have that withholding, the church is doing your taxes wrong and we can talk about how to adjust that.

 

Then, instead of having social security and medicare taxes withheld, you pay the full 15.3% self-employment tax.  Because the church effectively pays 107.65% of the salary of regular (non-clergy) employees (due to the mandatory social security and medicare tax contribution), many churches will "gross up" the salary of their pastors, to assist the pastor in paying the 15% SE tax.  At least, the SE tax issue should be something you discuss in salary negotiations.

In effect, if you are paid $50,000 for your services, and the music director is also paid $50,000, the music director is being paid more than you because of the church's mandatory contribution to social security and medicare that is not shown on their pay stub but must be paid to the IRS. 

 

Your housing allowance, assuming it is properly designated, is exempt from income tax but is still subject to self-employment tax.  (And, if your qualified housing expenses are less than your housing allowance, the excess is also added back to your taxable income.  If your qualified expenses are more than the housing allowance, there is no additional deduction or adjustment for expenses.)

A housing allowance must be designated in advance and in writing by the church board, elders, finance manager, or whatever your governing body is called.  If you want to change it, you can increase or decrease it going forward, but you can't make retroactive changes if you budgeted your housing expenses wrong.

 

The various tax credits for children and dependents cover your income tax but not your self-employment tax, because that's how those taxes work.

 

If you were a regular employee with an $80,000 salary, you would have seen $6,120 withheld for social security and medicare, and your employer would have paid an additional $6,120 that you would never see.  Because pastors are considered self-employed for certain income tax purposes, you are responsible for paying the entire $12,240 of self-employment tax yourself.  You need to plan for that as part of your monthly budget, and make estimated payments to the IRS 4 times a year to avoid penalties.  Since you have book royalties, that is also considered compensation for work you performed, so that is also subject to SE tax.  

 

Some denominations take a vow of poverty, and some denominations have a religious objection to participating in the social security system.  If that is the case, you can file a form to opt out of social security in which case you don't have to pay SE tax in the future, and you can get up to 3 years of past SE tax refunded to you.  However, that application is irrevocable, so as long as you are a pastor, you will not accumulate retirement credits in the social security system, which will limit any future benefit.  And, any work you do that is not considered pastoral or ministerial, is never exempt from social security or SE tax even if you have a religious exemption on file.

For example, if you worked at a religious school as a teacher, and did not have pastoral or ministerial duties as defined in the regulations, you are subject to the same social security and medicare withholding as any other regular employee.  

 

Lastly, if you have work-related expenses as a pastor, they are not deductible from your income tax due to the 2017 TCJA, but they are still deductible from income subject to SE tax.  This might include books and study materials that were not reimbursed by the church, mileage, and other expenses of being a pastor.  The adjustment is made by making a manual adjustment to the schedule SE worksheet using Turbotax installed on your own computer (the adjustment can't be made in Turbotax online).  And the adjustment must take into account the "Deason rule."  Basically in your case, because 70% of your total compensation is wages and 30% is non-taxable housing allowance, you can only deduct 70% of your work-related expenses.

 

DaveF1006
Expert Alumni

How is this possible?

Yes, let's break this down to where it's a little more digestible. Let's take each part one at a time.

 

  1.  Judging from what is written., you have a Housing Allowance reported in box 14 of your W2.
  2. Housing Allowance isn't taxable income. However, it's subject to self-employment taxes,  
  3. Now your taxable income, excluding your housing allowance, is $41,136 and the tax is $4357. This is correct.
  4.  It sounds like your self-employment tax is based from a $103,772 housing allowance because of the following formula to determine self-employment tax.  This is ($103,772)(.153)(.9235)=$14,663. Just think what would happen if you had to pay income tax on that amount.

When you talk about tax brackets, income tax brackets and self-employment taxes are two different things, and they are not grouped in the same way. 

 

Reach out if you have additional questions. I just wanted to break this down to where it may be more understandable because some tax issues are confusing at best. In the meantime, just march forward and continue the good fight as our lord commands us to and continue your good work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                             

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joshwats
Returning Member

How is this possible?

  1. My church doesn’t withhold anything.  The boxes 3-6 are blank.
  2. I’m clearly paying the full 15.3% SE tax (SS & Medicaid) on 41k taxable income.  If it’s 46% tax total on my taxable income, where is the other 31% tax?
  3. Am I required to pay SE tax on both wages and housing allowance? 
  4. I tried to opt out about 5 years ago, but it said something like you have to opt out within the first three years of employment, or it’s gone forever?  I’d LOVE to opt out of SS!
joshwats
Returning Member

How is this possible?

Hi Dave!

 

You said,

 

4. It sounds like your self-employment tax is based from a $103,772 housing allowance because of the following formula to determine self-employment tax.  This is ($103,772)(.153)(.9235)=$14,663.

 

So wait, it thinks my housing allowance is $103,772?  How?  I put $23,400 in Box 14.

How is this possible?


@joshwats wrote:

Hi Dave!

 

You said,

 

4. It sounds like your self-employment tax is based from a $103,772 housing allowance because of the following formula to determine self-employment tax.  This is ($103,772)(.153)(.9235)=$14,663.

 

So wait, it thinks my housing allowance is $103,772?  How?  I put $23,400 in Box 14.


No.  Your SE tax is on all your income that is considered "compensation" that does not already have social security taken out.  Your income subject to SE tax should be $58,000 salary plus $23,400 housing allowance plus $20,000 royalties plus $900 guest speaker.  Total is $102,300.  So that's pretty close, I assume it will work out exactly if I had exact figures.  

 

You don't pay SECA on only the housing allowance, you pay it on everything that is "compensation."

joshwats
Returning Member

How is this possible?

Thanks.  

 

  1. Ok, but 15.3% of $102,300 is $15,651.  Why am I taxed over $19k?
  2. And if my salary plus housing allowance from the church is 82k, and I’m getting $6k a month in paychecks, that equals 72k total, not 82k.  I paid $6,500 in taxes withheld this past year.  What happened to the other $4k of my income?
larrywa2
Returning Member

How is this possible?

You're right - this is beyond even the maximum tax bracket (which your income doesn't qualify for).   I don't think this is a problem that can be easily solved on the community chat forum - there may be more than one reason the software miscalculated, for instance.  The most useful thing I can say is this - If you sign up for the TurboTax Advantage plan, that gives you an opportunity to discuss this (and other) problem/s over the phone with a tax prep representative.  It's an extra $50, btw, but may be worth it.

How is this possible?


@joshwats wrote:

Thanks.  

 

  1. Ok, but 15.3% of $102,300 is $15,651.  Why am I taxed over $19k?
  2. And if my salary plus housing allowance from the church is 82k, and I’m getting $6k a month in paychecks, that equals 72k total, not 82k.  I paid $6,500 in taxes withheld this past year.  What happened to the other $4k of my income?

I can't see your tax return or your paychecks or your housing allowance agreement.  It sounds like your SE tax is $15,000 and your income tax is $4000?  But your income tax should be offset by the $2000 child tax credit, assuming your children are under age 16, or the $500 credit for other dependents, if they are 17 or older. You may need to consult a local accountant who understands clergy taxes (not all do) who can review all your documents.

 

Putting anything in box 14 does not change your taxes at all, it is a memo field that can be used for anything.  To properly report your housing allowance you must check the box for "religious wages" on the page of special circumstances after entering the W-2.  That will open the page for housing allowance and you will be asked for your housing allowance (enter $23,400), your qualified housing expenses (enter $23,400 unless your expenses are less), and check "both" for how you want to pay SE tax. 

 

When I was church treasurer I paid my pastor with 2 checks, and I did not withhold any federal or state income taxes, it was better for both of us for the pastor to make the estimated payments.  

 

Assuming a properly declared housing allowance of $23,400 ($1950 per month) and a stated salary of $58,000 ($4833), I would expect your monthly pay to be a gross amount of $6783.  If I was treasurer, I would not withhold any taxes, I would pay you $6783 and you would be responsible for paying the federal and state taxes.   If your paycheck is $6000 per month, then you could be having federal income tax or state income tax withheld, in the combined amount of $783 per month.  If those taxes are being properly withheld, they would show up in box 2 and box 17 of your W-2.  They go to your credit on your tax return.  You say you had $6500 in taxes withheld, that doesn't add up (783 x 12=9,396).  Did you have $6500 in federal tax and $2896 of state taxes withheld?  If it doesn't add up you need to talk to the church treasurer or an accountant or both. 

 

The withheld taxes go to your credit.  From what I can see, this is my guess of what your return should look like: 

 

From what I can see, you owe about $15,000 in self-employment tax.  

 

Then, for income tax, your taxable income is $58K + $20K + $900 = $79,000.  You get a standard deduction when married filing jointly of $29,200, so your taxable income is about $50,000.  The income tax on $50,000 of taxable income is about $5,560.  You should be eligible for the $2000 child tax credit on your children, assuming they are eligible, and that should zero out the federal income tax.  These credits do not change the SE tax, so you still owe $15,000.  If you had $6500 of withholding, you should be looking at a net payment due to the IRS of $7500.

 

But that's just a guess.

 

You may need to print your tax returns.  If using Turbotax online, you have to pay the fee before you can print, but you don't have to file.  Pay the fee, print your returns, then go back to one of the other tabs (don't file) until you can review and understand everything.  A tax return is just a simple series of addition and subtraction problems.  The rules about what number goes where can be complex, but you should be able to follow the numbers and see where the various taxes and credits are being applied. 

joshwats
Returning Member

How is this possible?

Thanks.

 

1. Ok, I'm guessing that I'm being taxed a SE tax of about $15k for a total of 102k income.  And the rest of the taxes that bring the taxes from 15k up to 19k are a 4k of income tax on $41k taxable income.

2. And when it comes to the discrepancy between my 82k salary with the church but my taking home 73k through paychecks, with $6,700 federal taxes withheld in '24, the remaining $2,300 or so must be state taxes that have been withheld.

---- Does all the above make sense given what I've provided?? ----

 

3. Finally, is it still possible for me to opt out of Social Security?  I was told it had to be done within the first few years, but is that opportunity still available to me?

 

Thanks!

How is this possible?


@joshwats wrote:

Thanks.

 

1. Ok, I'm guessing that I'm being taxed a SE tax of about $15k for a total of 102k income.  And the rest of the taxes that bring the taxes from 15k up to 19k are a 4k of income tax on $41k taxable income.

2. And when it comes to the discrepancy between my 82k salary with the church but my taking home 73k through paychecks, with $6,700 federal taxes withheld in '24, the remaining $2,300 or so must be state taxes that have been withheld.

---- Does all the above make sense given what I've provided?? ----

 

3. Finally, is it still possible for me to opt out of Social Security?  I was told it had to be done within the first few years, but is that opportunity still available to me?

 

Thanks!


1. Your income subject to income tax is about $79K.  Income subject to SE tax is your taxable income plus your non-taxable housing allowance, which equals $102K.

 

2. If your gross pay was supposed to be $82K (salary plus housing allowance) and your net paychecks add up to $72K, you need to look for $10,000 of subtractions.  That could be federal tax withholding (box 2) and state tax withholding (box 17).  It could also be deductions for health insurance premiums or for retirement plan contributions, or other similar items.  You will have to confirm with your church.

 

3. I am not an expert on this particular form, but I read the instructions the same way you do.  Assuming you have been a pastor for more than 2 years, it seems you have missed your window.  (this is the first year using turbotax but not your first year preparing taxes as a pastor, maybe?)   How have you filed your taxes in the past?  

 

One thing is that the clergy rules apply when you are performing ministerial duties (you are licensed, perform sacraments, direct worship, etc.).  My church had an assistant pastor who was not licensed in our denomination (needed to take a couple of seminary courses before being allowed to transfer his license from another denomination), so he was not considered clergy for IRS purposes (could not perform sacraments) and he was paid as a regular lay employee.  The special rules (housing allowance, SE tax, etc) only start to apply when you are actually performing the duties and responsibilities of a pastor in your denomination.

 

I bring this up because you say you have been a pastor for a while but you seem unfamiliar with all the special rules and situations.  If you have been an assistant pastor not in a sacramental role (and being paid as a lay employee), and only recently transitioned to a full pastoral role eligible for a housing allowance and so on, then you might still be within that 2 year window for tax purposes.  It depends on how you have been paid and how you filed your taxes in the past.  Do you have a schedule SE attached as part of any of your prior tax returns?

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