turbotax icon
cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
turbotax icon
cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
Close icon
Do you have a TurboTax Online account?

We'll help you get started or pick up where you left off.

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?

Hi -

 

I'm looking to buy a property with a business partner and was wondering about a few questions. We're not planning on buying it via an LLC. The questions are:

 

  • If the mortgage is only in one person's name, does that impact how interest costs are distributed?
  • Would having the deed/title in only one person's name also change anything related to expense allocations?
Connect with an expert
x
Do you have an Intuit account?

Do you have an Intuit account?

You'll need to sign in or create an account to connect with an expert.

10 Replies
Anonymous
Not applicable

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?

if you intend for joint ownership, you have a partnership.  a partnership is supposed to file its own annual tax return with penalties for failure to file.    if a partnership then, the title to the property should be in the partnership's name and the mortgage will also be in the partnerships name.   there's a good reason for this.

 

 

 

One of the basic rules of income taxes is that the person paying the expense gets the deduction, and the  mortgage interest deduction is no exception. If you and another person pay the mortgage, you can each take a deduction only for the amount of mortgage interest that you actually pay, assuming you meet the other requirements. For example if the total mortgage payments for the year are $10,000, and you pay only $4,000, you can deduct only 40 percent of the mortgage interest, even if the other person agrees to let you claim his portion. This applies not only to unmarried individuals, but to married couples who file separate returns.

 

this doesn't become an issue when the property and mortgage are in the name of the partnership, because it is the partnership paying the mortgage not the individuals.   but say the partnership is short of cash when a payment is due.  the wise thing to do would be for each partner to put money into  it and have it pay the mortgage rather than each sending personal payments to the mortgage company

 

if only your name was on the mortgage,  and it went into default, if there was a balance after the sales proceeds were applied, if the mortgage company could come after anyone it would be only you.       

 

if you were the only one on the title and mortgage, it might be possible to sell the property without your "partner's" okay and walk off with the net proceeds.  he might sue,  but without the proper paperwork, I don't think he wouldn't stand a chance

 

I'm an accountant, but I've seen many things happen that turned out badly for at least one of the "partner's" in the course of practicing for over 40 years.  a written partnership agreement would be a good idea.  without one if you or your partner go to court of the actions of the other it's going to be resolved by whom the judge believes.  Suppose he's to come up with his cash for the venture when needed but doesn't.   What recourse do you have?. 

I'm not a lawyer  and laws vary from state to state,  so you should probably consult one to best structure the arrangement.

Carl
Level 15

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?

In my experience (well, my observation of the experience of others) the one ship that never makes port, is a Partnership. I've a few horror stories about some of the failures I've seen too.... and when I say "horror" that's putting it mildly.

TO start with, understand that long term rental property is always reported on SCH E *no* *matter* *what*.

Next, be aware that both a partnership and a multi-member LLC file the same IRS Form 1065-Partnership Return each year at tax time.

Next, putting a rental in a multi-member LLC is a waste of time and will not give you the legal protection you may think... I don't care what the CPA's tell you. It flat out "will not" protect your personal assets from litigation should you, the other members, or the multi-member LLC be sued by a rental tenant. So don't waste your time with a multi-member LLC. Just establish a Partnership instead.

When purchasing the property, the deed needs to have the name of all partners *OR* the name of the partnership. I prefer the latter because it allows for a change in the number of partners for tax reporting purposes, without having to go through the hassle of changing things on the deed. That's a really big hassle with the mortgage holder, and it's rare of a mortgage holder to allow that.

But the downside of that is, if there's only two partners in the partnership and one of them leaves with no one to replace them, then you no longer have a partnership and the partnership is dissolved. Then the one remaining "owner" reports the rental stuff on SCH E as a part of their personal 1040 tax return. Changing ownership on the deed from the partnership to the one remaining sole owner requires that sole owner to be able to "qualify" for the mortgage on their own merits. For most (not necessarily you) if they could have qualified on their own merits, they would have never agreed to a partnership in the first place.

 

So if you're going to do a partnership make sure you both have your ducks in a row. You both need to see a lawyer and draft up a partnership agreement that will hold up in court. Here's a few examples of things that need to be covered.

- What happens if one of the partner's die? Will those inheriting his assets also get his percentage of the partnership and the power that comes with it? Do all partners even have a last will and testament?

- What happens if one of the partner's losses their job while the rental sits empty for 3 months? Remember, rented or empty the mortgage payments still have to be made.

- What happens if a partner just decides "I don't want to do this anymore. I quit!"

- What happens if a partner is in an accident and becomes disabled and not only unable to work, but are also unable to "actively participate" in rental activities?

 - What happens if a partner is in an accident and ends up in a coma for 6 months or more? They're not dead, so nothing of their share is "inherited" by anyone.

 - What if one partner hits the state lotto for $300M and wants to buy the other partner's out? Or better yet, what if they want to buy themselves out of the partnership so they don't have to deal with it anymore?

The above are just a few of the things I'm managed to think of off the top of my head just while sitting here and typing it. But the list could be endless.

 

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?

Hackitoff - thank you for the thoughtful reply. I'm going to reply here point by point.

 

I just want to start off by saying just because I'm not planning on forming an entity to decrease administrative burden & costs, that doesn't mean that an operating agreement won't be in place.

 

  • Joint-ownership: I completely understand the difference between legal entity and how something is taxed. I'm aware that you're automatically in a partnership if you start a business with someone, whether or not you have an operating agreement or legal entity in place.
  • Mortgage liability: completely understand that the person not on the mortgage can walk away without consequences with the bank. However, the operating agreement will provide recourse to the "loan partner" in case this happens.
  • Name on deed: my understanding is that you can have names on the deed that are not on the mortgage. This is usually one's spouse or family member. Asking this preemptively in case having a non-spouse & unrelated individual on the deed causes issues during closing. I also appreciate the fact that adding/removing individuals from the deed can affect the mortgage and once again, an operating agreement will be in place to dictate the terms of the partnership, including sale.
  • Expense deductions: Having been self-employed, I understand that you can only deduct what you spent. Just wanted to check that there were no gotchas related to "only the person named on the mortgage can deduct interest expenses" or "only the person on the deed can deduct operating expenses: taxes, repairs, etc". A joint bank account would be established for this specific property.

I hope that helps clarify what I was trying to check. Let me know if have any other thoughts. Thanks!

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?


@calm technician wrote:
  • Joint-ownership: I completely understand the difference between legal entity and how something is taxed. 

Just be advised that co-ownership, as far as the IRS is concerned, does not create a legal entity separate from the two owners solely as a result of that form of ownership.

 

....Similarly, mere co-ownership of property that is maintained, kept in repair, and rented or leased does not constitute a separate entity for federal tax purposes. For example , if an individual owner, or tenants in common, of farm property lease it to a farmer for a cash rental or a share of the crops, they do not necessarily create a separate entity for federal tax purposes.

 

Treas. Reg. § 301.7701-1(a)(2)

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?

Carl - thanks for your response! I just replied to HACKITOFF, which address some of the points that you made.

 

Completely agree with you that having a partnership without an Operating Agreement, legal entity in place or not, is completely asinine. I'm assuming that what you mean by "establishing a partnership" is having an Operating Agreement in place rather establishing an LP or LLP. Also appreciate that having an LLC in place for real estate: 1) isn't a panacea, and 2) doesn't protect members as much as it is made to seem.

 

There are two things that I want to bring up related to part of your answer:

  • 1065 return: My understanding is that real estate partnerships seem to be exempt from having to file 1065 returns, which decreases a good bit of managerial overhead.
  • Sched E: My understanding here is that, yes, all passive (unearned) income is reported on Sched E. The difference between having flow through a multi-member LLC vs not is that with a multi-member LLC the figures go on part 2, whereas with no multi-member LLC the figures go on part 1. I'm drawing a distinction here between solo vs multi-member LLCs since solo LLCs are ignored so don't have to file a 1065 & produce a K-1 and just put in the figures in part 1 of Sched E as if you owned the property without an entity.

Let me know if you have any clarifications on the points above or any other thoughts. Thanks!

 

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?

Thanks @tagteam - I alluded to this in my response to Carl just now. Co-ownership of property seems to be a "special" type of partnership in the eyes of the tax code that precludes the need to file a 1065. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?

@calm technician 

 

You either have a separate entity (such as a partnership which files a Form 1065 and issues K-1s to its partners) or you don't. The choice is generally up to the co-owners.

 

Regarding Schedule E, if you are filing a Form 1065, rental income and expenses are reported on Form 8825 and filed as an attachment to Form 1065 when the partnership files its return. Information from the K-1 will appear, among other places, on Part II of Schedule E. 

 

Anonymous
Not applicable

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?

Who Must File
Domestic Partnerships
Except as provided below, every domestic
partnership must file Form 1065, unless it
neither receives income nor incurs any
expenditures treated as deductions or
credits for federal income tax purposes.

 

A qualifying syndicate, pool, joint venture,
or similar organization may elect under
section 761(a) not to be treated as a
partnership for federal income tax purposes
and will not be required to file Form 1065
except for the year of election. For details,
see section 761(a) and Regulations section
1.761-2.  especially look at 1.761-2(a)(2)(iii) 

the election must be attached to the first return under REG 1-761-2(b)(2)

 

under code section 761

(a)PartnershipFor purposes of this subtitle, the term “partnership” includes a syndicate, group, pool, joint venture, or other unincorporated organization through or by means of which any business, financial operation, or venture is carried on, and which is not, within the meaning of this title, a corporation or a trust or estate. Under regulations the Secretary may, at the election of all the members of an unincorporated organization, exclude such organization from the application of all or part of this subchapter, if it is availed of—
(1)for investment purposes only and not for the active conduct of a business,

 

you also have to look at state laws.   they may require their own partnership return even if you aren't required to file for federal

 

under certain circumstances the conduct of real estate rental can be deemed a trade or business for purposes of section 199A  the 20% Qualified Business Income Deduction.      The calculation of QBI and therefore, the benefits of section 199A, are limited to taxpayers whose real estate activity rises to the level of a trade or business. 

By the way? The one special case situation where direct real estate investment automatically counts as a trade or business? When someone rents property to another trade or business they own at least 50 percent of.

For example, say you own an office building. Further, say you rent the office building to a corporation or partnership. If you own at least half that entity and it operates a trade or business, your rental property by law counts as a trade or business

 

what isn't determined if you request to be exempt as an investment partnership do you qualify for the 199A 

 

so I would say if you don't qualify for the 199A, your probably safe in not filing a partnership return after making the proper election.   

 

The Rental Real Estate Safe Harbor
The safe harbor says that if a rental investor maintains separate books and records to reflect income and expenses for each rental real estate enterprise and then also maintains contemporaneous records to document that the investor and other workers spend 250 or more hours a year on the rental, that counts as good enough.

The IRS wrote strict rules about the contemporaneous time records. The records need to document the “hours of all services performed,” describe the services, supply the dates, and then identify who performed the services. (Services can be performed by the investor or someone else he or she hires like a repair person or property manager.)

Another wrinkle here? Only certain hours “count” toward the 250 hours requirement: advertising, verifying tenant information, rent collection, repairs and maintenance, daily operations stuff, property management, purchasing, and then supervision of employees and independent contractors.

Unfortunately, much other real estate work doesn’t count: arranging financing; procuring property; studying and reviewing financial statements, business planning, constructing improvements, and then hours spent traveling to and from properties.

Note: If you want to use the safe harbor, you need to carefully read then reread the roughly 10-page document. You have a bunch of complicated rules to follow.

Sizing Up the Rental Real Estate Safe Harbor
So, what to make of the safe harbor? Does it clear the fog? Absolutely not.

Most tax CPAs I’ve talked with think the rental real estate safe harbor is problematic for small investors.

Why?

Well, when you look at the safe harbor rule and then ponder the way the Treasury and IRS hedge or hedged their language about the “Section 162 trade or business” standard in the final regulations and the tax form filing instructions, you get a distinct impression. That impression? It sure seems like having your real estate activity rise to the level of a “mere” Section 162 trade or business isn’t actually good enough.

To use quote a word from the final regulations, an investor’s activity needs to also be “considerable.” So this would be in addition to the investor showing regularity, continuity and a profit motive.

To quote another word from the draft IRS Publication 535 instructions, the IRS also wanted an investor’s activity to be “extensive.” So this would be in addition to the investor showing regularity, continuity and a profit motive. (In the final version of IRS 535 Publication, pointedly, the IRS removed the language requiring the investor’s activity to be “extensive.”)

In any case, in the end, small real estate investors who before the safe harbor notice seemed to qualify easily for Section 199A now don’t easily qualify

Hal_Al
Level 15

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?

@calm technician 

 

  • 1065 return: My understanding is that real estate partnerships seem to be exempt from having to file 1065 returns, which decreases a good bit of managerial overhead.

I agree with that statement.  

 

  • Sched E: My understanding here is that, yes, all passive (unearned) income is reported on Sched E. 

Yes, each of your reports your share of the  income and expenses.  If only one you owns the property, only that person can claim any  depreciation. 

Where does income from a non-spouse jointly owned property go?

@calm technician 

 

I would urge you, vociferously, to consult with an attorney and/or tax adviser in your state prior to proceeding with the transaction you are contemplating. 

 

Different terms get tossed around, confusion ensues as a result, and there are instances where state law controls and is critical - and there are ramifications beyond federal and state tax law.

 

As a final thought, be advised that a "partnership" (whether dealing with real estate or otherwise) should not be conflated with "co-ownership". For example, there is a world of difference between a deed that states "John Smith and John Jones, as tenants in common" and a deed that states "Calm Technician Partners" (where you own 50% of that partnership).

message box icon

Get more help

Ask questions and learn more about your taxes and finances.

Post your Question
Manage cookies