Hello,
I am converting an investestment property to a LLC. I have some questions
1) What Turbotaxt product version do I need to use to file my taxes
2) I am planning to have my wife in the LLC as well. We do join taxes eveyr year. How do I enter taxes with the newly created LLC? (The property is in WA state)
Thanks!
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You may be able to treat the entity for tax purposes as a spousal joint venture and as such enter the income and expenses on a schedule C, otherwise you would normally file on a partnership form 1065.
Since the property is in Washington State, which is a community property state, you probably qualify for the spousal joint venture. If not, then you may qualify anyway if you both materially participate in the venture, there are no other partners, and you agree to be taxed as a disregarded entity.
That said, it may be simpler to file as a partnership on form 1065, as that will allow you to file all of your income and expenses on one form, as opposed to spitting things up between two schedule C's, one for each spouse.
If you choose to file as a partnership, you need the Business TurboTax product. If you file as a disregarded entity (schedule C) you need the Self-Employed or Home and Business version of TurboTax, where you file your personal taxes as well.
You can learn more about the spousal joint venture here:
https://www.thetaxadviser.com/issues/2019/apr/llc-spouses-partnership-joint-venture.html
Why do an LLC at all ??? The rental is reported on the personal return on a Sch E NOT a Sch C unless you run it as a B&B or Motel. The LLC designation will do nothing more for you than a good liability insurance policy which you should already have so why bother with the extra paperwork and possible fees. Before you do anything talk to a local tax pro to see if there are state considerations but for the feds there is nothing to be gained.
I will see if @Carl will chime in here.
This is my view, based on the way Florida law treats LLCs for tax purposes, as well as legal decisions I've read that are part of the public record in places like Dade County (Miami) and Duval County (Jacksonville)
The below is not to deter you from making a business the legal owner of your rental property. It's more to educate you so that you can make an informed and educated decision. Any decision you make should not be based only on the information provided here. You should seek legal advice not just from a tax professional, but from a "legal" professional knowledgeable in all the legal aspects outside of the tax *AND* OTHER* *LEGAL* ramifications of your decision separate from taxes.
Occasionally a rental property owner will be “convinced” they need to put their rental property into an LLC (be it single owner or multi-owner LLC) as a means of protecting themselves and their personal assets from legal litigation should they ever be sued by a tenant. The property owner is told the LLC gives them and their personal assets a “veil of protection” from any legal litigation that may arise as the result of legal actions perpetrated by a rental tenant. Laws differ on this from state to state, so this may not be “entirely” true to the degree you may think it is. It can be easy for the business owner to unwittingly make a mistake that allows the legal piercing of that protection.
If you check court records (even in your local area) you’ll probably find numerous cases where a tenant sued their landlord and the LLC provided practically no protection of the property owner’s assets. In some states, that “veil of protection” offered by an LLC is so thin, even a new first-time lawyer has no problem piercing that veil and attacking the personal assets of the property owner on behalf of the tenant. It’s mostly because the property owner made the mistake “just one time” of mixing personal expenses with business expenses. In fact, many legal firms will give such cases to their “new hires” right out of law school because it’s a great confidence builder for them since it’s practically a guaranteed win for the tenant. There may be other legal problems and issues with this too which have nothing to do with taxes.
In order to legally transfer ownership of rental property to an LLC, the owner must have the permission of the mortgage holder. No lender in their right mind will give this permission either. Even if you think you can refinance the property or “sell” it to your LLC, unless your LLC has the cash or other assets on hand to pay for it in full, your LLC may never qualify for the mortgage loan. The lender doesn’t want to risk your LLC going under (by filing bankruptcy for example), and they lose money because of it. So I’m confident in telling you that while not impossible, the chances are that’s not going to happen.
When you create an LLC for your rental property, it’s generally understood that business income gets reported on SCH C as a part of your personal tax return. However, a SCH C business produces “earned” income, and a long-term rental property produces “passive” income. (the definition of a long term and short-term rental can differ not only from state to state, but from lower level taxing authorities within the state.) What’s the difference?
Earned income is income which you have to do out and “do something” in order to earn it. This income is subject to regular income tax, and also an additional 15.3% self-employment tax. The SE tax is basically the employer side of your social security and Medicare. But rental income is not “earned” income, and therefore is not reported on SCH C. So if you create an LLC for your rental property, then absolutely nothing concerning that rental property will be reported on SCH C. Not one penny of rental income and not one penny of rental expenses.
Rental income is “passive”. That’s because all you do with rental property on a recurring basis is just “sit there” and collect the rent every month. You are not “doing anything” to “earn” it on a recurring basis. That’s why rental income is reported on SCH E. Rental income is subject to regular tax, but is NOT subject to the additional self-employment tax. This means that rental income DOES NOT COUNT for your social security account or Medicare contributions.
SO if you create an LLC for your rental property, there are two things that will NOT happen.
- You will not be able to “legally” transfer ownership of the property from you, to the LLC unless you have a really dumb lender.
- You will not report one penny of rental income or one penny of rental expense on SCH C.
So in the end, you will be filing a zero income/expense SCH C with your personal tax return.
Now let’s say you decide to file the 8832 to treat your LLC like an S-Corp, and then you transfer ownership of the property to your LLC. You can and will report your rental income on form 8825 as a part of the 1120-S Corporate Return. Then the corporation issues each owner/member a K-1. Each owner/member enters the K-1 on their personal 1040 tax return, and the rental information ends up on page 2 of the SCH E as a part of your personal tax return. But keep in mind the S-Corp election for an LLC is for ***TAX PURPOSES ONLY!!!****. So if a tenant sues you, I seriously doubt the courts will recognize your S-Corp, and I seriously doubt the court will recognize the S-Corp as a physically separate owner of the property. Remember, that 8832 Entity Classification Election is for “TAX PURPOSES ONY”. It has no weight at all for any and all other legal purposes – such as you being sued by a tenant.
SO if you want to do this (and it still makes no financial sense) then form an actual S-Corp and transfer ownership of the property to the S-Corp. More than likely the lender won’t allow the transfer. But you can sell the property to the S-Corp if the S-Corp can qualify for a mortgage loan. Overall though, it’s still financially dumb to do this. Here’s why I say that.
When you move out of your primary residence and convert it to residential rental real estate, you have to convert your homeowner’s insurance policy to a rental dwelling policy. Or if you buy the real estate as rental property outright, then you have to obtain a rental dwelling policy at that time. A rental dwelling policy will, at a minimum, include $300,000 of liability coverage. For most that will suffice. But if the property is in certain areas of the country you may want more liability coverage. I have three rentals myself and have a total of $1,000,000 of liability on each. It cost me less than an additional $100 a year on the insurance for each property. So for me, it’s worth it. It’s also significantly cheaper not only in money, but in time spent dealing with corporate taxes and all that other additional paperwork crap.
One mistake I see quite often is that when an owner converts their primary residence or 2nd home to rental property, and they fail to update their insurance policy. This can bite when you have a claim. If the property is insured as your primary residence, but you are using it as rental property (which is other than it’s insured use) don’t be surprised when the insurance company denies your claim, and you can’t find any lawyers that will take your case. If it’s a case of you being sued by a tenant, then to be honest and put it bluntly, you’re screwed.
There's nothing wrong with LLCs and using them as protection....there's a reason they exist and aren't just fluff and useless. You have to careful to keep good books and records and your personal finances separated....no commingling. You have to treat it like a separate company and not an extension of yourself. You also have to be careful with management decisions and record them as made by the LLC and not as a personal decision by the member. If you do those things you're going to be protected. But everyone should take notice that ANYONE can try to pierce the veil of the company whether it's an LLC or S corp or C corp if those companies are treated as just an extension of their owners.
No, Carl, a lender can't stop you from deeding the RE to a corp or an LLC......the lender can invoke the due on sale clause, though and that's THE problem.
If you want to make an S corp election the form is 2553 NOT 8832.....use 8832 to elect C corp status and OF COURSE the courts won't recognize an LLC with an S corp election as an S corp because it would be a STATE COURT and state courts recognize what's organized at that level WHICH IS AN LLC!
Have to say it's hard to find a post with so much misleading info in it as Carl's.
If you open an LLC then how it is taxed depends on how many members there are ... a single member LLC is either a Sch C or Sch E since it is a disregarded entity.
A multi member LLC is taxed as a partnership.
However if you live in a community property state and you and your wife are the only members of the LLC, you have the option to treat the LLC as a qualified joint venture instead of as a partnership. In that case you would each file a Schedule C reporting half of the LLC's income, assuming that you each own 50% of the LLC. Community property states are AZ, CA, ID, LA, NM, NV, TX, WA, and WI.
Now both single member & multi member LLC can elect to be taxed as an S-corp if they make a timely election.
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