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I read for section 179, if you buy a new or used SUV, as long as the GVWR is over 6000, you can write off up to $25,000 in the first year. Then you can write off all gas and maintenance and toll/parking expenses in the following years.
I spoke to two different people and both gave me two different perspectives. Both have a LLC where they manage investment properties.
Person 1- buy car for her business under her personal name and writes off all car expenses. Has a separate car strictly for personal. Car insurance is in personal name and registration of car at dmv is under personal name.
Person 2- buy car for her business under her business name and writes off all car expenses. Also has a separate car strictly for personal. Car insurance is under business name and registration of car at dmv is also under business name.
So what’s the difference between the two in terms of eligible tax write offs? Does the first one because it’s under personal name have certain limitations vs the second one? It almost seems like it’s one extra step to have everything under business with insurance and dmv so are there more tax benefits doing it the second way?
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this is as much an issue of economics as much as taxes as long as the LLC is single-member.
person two may be taking excess deductions if that taxpayer is deducting 100% of car insurance because some cover the personal car which should be non-deductible. as for insurance talk to your insurance agent as to how to title and insure the car(s) since laws differ from state to state.
in either case, the IRS want records kept for mileage for the business car usage and expenses
say you buy 2 cars at $25K each 1 - 100% business 1 - 100% personal. say tax savings on the business car is 30%. so the taxpayer is out $42.5K ($50K - $7.5K) with just 1 car 50% business use the taxpayer is out almost the full $25K the first year because depreciation is limited when business use is 50% or less but over the taxable life of the car assuming the same 30% bracket $21.25k ($25K -$3.75K). 179 can't be used if business use is 50% or less.
nothing prevents the 2-car person from using a more expensive vehicle for business and a cheaper one for personal or vice versa. as I said this is as much economics as taxes.
Then you can write off all gas and maintenance and toll/parking expenses in the following years. not totally correct since in addition to depreciation you can write off the business expenses - gas, repairs tolls parking insurance in year 1.
record-keeping for two cars can be time-consuming. you need to keep track of the expenses attributable to the business car - such as gas, repairs, tolls, parking, etc. with1 car expenses are allocated based on mileage except you can use specific accounting for tolls and parking (receipts if possible with the business reason or property you inspecting)
Person 2 says because the car is owned by the LLC, everything that they do is expensed 100% to the business. Because they have a second car for personal use, their first car thats owned by the business is all able to be written off (actual expenses).
Person 1 also says that they use one of the cars strictly for business. Because they also have a second car dedicated for personal use. But since the first car that they strictly use for business is technically not owned by the business, it is owned by the person's name, how can they claim 100% usage? Or can they, as long as they keep all receipts?
For a single-member LLC, the taxpayer and the LLC are the same entity for tax purposes (unless the LLC elects to file its taxes as an S-corp). In that case, it does not matter how the car is titled. As long as the car is used 100% for business, 100% of the expenses are deductible as business expenses.
Where the difference comes in is not taxes, but the liability protection that is (theoretically) afforded by the LLC structure. This will depend on the laws of the state where the LLC is created, and every state may be different. I suppose friend #2 is thinking that if they get in a big accident with their car, the fact that it is titled to the LLC means they are personally protected from liability exposure--they could lose the business but not their personal assets. This may or may not be true in actual fact. But as far as the IRS is concerned, it doesn't matter whether a car used by a single member LLC is titled to the owner or the business.
For a multi-member LLC, where the LLC must file a form 1065 partnership return, the car should be owned by the LLC. Here, the LLC is a different tax entity than the members, and the car should be owned by the business so the costs are allocated to each member's K-1 statement. Alternatively, the car could be owned by a member, and the LLC can reimburse them under an accountable plan, for actual expenses or using the standard mileage rate.
@jyeh74 wrote:Person 2 says because the car is owned by the LLC, everything that they do is expensed 100% to the business.
Just to clarify, only the business percentage of expenses can be deducted. If the vehicle has ANY personal use, that personal-use portion is NOT deductible, regardless of how the vehicle is titled. And I suspect it is extremely rare that a vehicle would have 100% business use.
@AmeliesUncle wrote:
@jyeh74 wrote:
Person 2 says because the car is owned by the LLC, everything that they do is expensed 100% to the business.
Just to clarify, only the business percentage of expenses can be deducted. If the vehicle has ANY personal use, that personal-use portion is NOT deductible, regardless of how the vehicle is titled. And I suspect it is extremely rare that a vehicle would have 100% business use.
You're allowed de minimis personal use, I believe, especially if the vehicle is distinctive or not easily used for other purposes. For example, if you have a truck that has your business logo and that carries your tools and supplies, you won't lose the business deduction if you stop at the grocery store on the way home. But any substantial (non-minimal) personal use would have to be accounted for.
The problem with "De Minimis", is that it has been repeatedly ruled as being REALLY, REALLY small (and I'm not quite sure if it even applies to a business owner with Listed Property). I suspect anything more than a few miles a month would invalidate "De Minimis".
So what is this $25,000 first year deduction that you can take when you buy a heavy SUV over 6000 GVWR entail? Can business owners only write this $25,000 off if the car was purchased under the business or can business owners also write it off if the car is purchased personally under their name (not business name) Or does it not really matter?
@Opus 17 for a two member business, why is resource suggested doing a SCorp instead of a LLC? All he said was you get greater tax benefits on SCorp vs LLC for purposes of running a real estate investment company. Don't you pay more taxes in SCorp than LLC? They are W2 works and have the investment company also. Does SCorp split up the income so its not aggregated, thus saving taxes compared to the LLC which adds income up from W2 and rental income?
@jyeh74 wrote:
@Opus 17 for a two member business, why is resource suggested doing a SCorp instead of a LLC? All he said was you get greater tax benefits on SCorp vs LLC for purposes of running a real estate investment company. Don't you pay more taxes in SCorp than LLC? They are W2 works and have the investment company also. Does SCorp split up the income so its not aggregated, thus saving taxes compared to the LLC which adds income up from W2 and rental income?
I can't advise you on the difference between a 2-member LLC and an S-corp. There are many factors and I am not an expert.
However, as a 2-member LLC, you must be filing a form 1065 partnership tax return OR a form 1120 corporate return (if you elect to file as an S-corp). You can't file a 2-member LLC on a schedule C for each member (unless the members are spouses in a community property state).
If you are a multi-member LLC, I think for various reasons it is better for the business to own the vehicle, or for the member to use a personal vehicle and get reimbursed using one of the methods in publication 463, chapter 4. I would not recommend that the member own the vehicle and claim it was used 100% for business. That's likely to get audited. If the member owns the vehicle, they need to track mileage and expenses per the rules in publication 463. (Even if the vehicle is mostly used for business, you will need to have the mileage logs and other records.)
@jyeh74 wrote:
So what is this $25,000 first year deduction that you can take when you buy a heavy SUV over 6000 GVWR entail? Can business owners only write this $25,000 off if the car was purchased under the business or can business owners also write it off if the car is purchased personally under their name (not business name) Or does it not really matter?
I think you probably need a professional consultation.
Let's take a step or two backwards.
If you buy assets for business use, you depreciate them (deduct their cost over their useful life). Section 179 says that, within certain limits, you can deduct the entire cost in the first year you place the asset in service. One of those limits is certain passenger vehicles over 6000 pounds. In that case, you can expense $25,000 of the cost in the first year, and then you can deduct the rest of the cost as normal depreciation spread out over the expected life of the vehicle, which I think is 5 years for cars.
(Section 179 also says that if you sell the vehicle or stop using it in business before the depreciation period is up, you have to recapture or pay tax, on the depreciation that you are no longer entitled to because you took the asset out of service. Section 179 is not a free ride, so be careful you understand all the ups and downs.)
There is also something called "bonus depreciation" which I honestly know nothing about. Talking section 179 or bonus depreciation allows you to deduct all or most of the cost all at once instead of spread out, and lowers your taxable income. But sometimes this is not the best way to run your business. For example, if you take such a large deduction that you have a tax loss for the year, you might not be able to get a loan to expand your business. Sometimes it might be beneficial to use normal depreciation so you have higher income and that will help your business in other ways besides higher taxes. Whether you should take standard depreciation, bonus depreciation, or section 179 depreciation on the purchase of an asset is complicated and there is not always one best answer.
If you buy an asset that is partly for business use, you only depreciate that portion. For example, if you buy a computer that is used 50% for business and 50% for personal use, and you can prove this with some kind of reasonable record, you can depreciate 50% of the cost as a business expense.
So let's get back to your vehicle.
If the business buys the vehicle, the business can depreciate the vehicle via normal depreciation, section 179 depreciation, or bonus depreciation, depending on other facts and circumstances. In the case of certain passenger vehicles over 6000 pounds, you can only claim $25,900 towards section 179 and the remaining cost must be depreciated over 5 years.
If the vehicle is owned by the business but only used 90% for business and 10% for personal use of the LLC members, you can only take 90% of the cost as depreciation (any of the 3 methods).
If the vehicle is owned by the member and used in business, the member does not take section 179, that's for the business only. (You did not clarify at the beginning that you were a multi-member LLC.). The member can get reimbursed for their expenses using one of the methods in publication 463 chapter 4. Those expense methods both take depreciation into account, but there is no method for accelerated depreciation.
If you want to take section 179 on this vehicle, it has to be purchased by the multi-member LLC and really used 100% for business. Don't get caught by the IRS driving it around for personal use on the weekends.
Person 2 says because the car is owned by the LLC, everything that they do is expensed 100% to the business.
That's only true if the vehicle is 100% business use. If there is any personal use, then the business use portion must be prorated based on the actual percentage of business use.
Person 1 also says that they use one of the cars strictly for business. Because they also have a second car dedicated for personal use.
Just because you have a 2nd care for personal use, doesn't mean the 1st car was actually used for 100% business use.
In both cases, the IRS requires you to keep records of actual use. If audited, you may be required to produce those records. If you can't produce records, then it's perfectly possible that any business use deductions could be disallowed.
remember the three golden rules when dealing with the IRS.
1) You are guilty until proven innocent.
2) The burden of proof is on the accused (that's you!) and not the accuser.
3) If it's not in writing, then it did not occur.
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