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Can I estimate what my underpayment penalty will be?

I'll probably do a Roth IRA conversion before the end of this year. I'm not exactly sure yet of the amount. I only decided to do this in the last couple of weeks. I've done a rough calculation of my 2024 taxes. 

I'm 69 years old, not disabled. Can't honestly say that I have some kind of hardship. 

I worked as an independent contractor this year. My total income is $14,058.00 which includes my Schedule C and Interest Income.  My total tax is $1,067 according to the calculator, which is all self-employment tax. 

I did not have any tax withheld from my income, nor did I make any estimated payments (mistakes, I know). If I do a Roth conversion it will of course add to my income this year. I'm sure I'll have to pay a penalty. I'd love not to, but I don't think that I qualify for any of the "safe harbors". Is there any way to estimate in advance what my penalty would be for different increases in income? Also, is there a way to at least reduce the penalty? Many thanks for your time.

 

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5 Replies

Can I estimate what my underpayment penalty will be?

If you have income tax withheld from the conversion, you will avoid any penalty related to the conversion.   Withholding is treated as if it was spread out over the whole year.  

 

If you don't have taxes withheld, you need to follow two steps.

1. Make an estimated payment at www.irs.gov/payments before January 15.

2. When preparing your tax return, enter the penalty interview (even if not automatically prompted) and prepare the penalty form 2210 using the "annualized income" method.  You will need to list your income and tax payments by quarter, and show the IRS that even though your tax payments were not evenly distributed over the year, they were appropriate for the amount of income you received in each quarter.   (Or in your case, you may end up showing that you were $250 short each quarter, but not thousands short.)

 

You can also have the taxes withheld by making the conversion in two steps.

1. Make a direct rollover conversion with taxes withheld.

2. Within 60 days, send a payment to the Roth IRA custodian in the amount of the missing taxes, telling them this is also a conversion.

 

For example, to convert $10,000, you could directly convert $10,000 with $2000 withholding.  Then, within 60 days, send a check for $2000 to the Roth IRA telling them this is also a conversion.  (They don't need to know or care that it is part of the same conversion.)  In other words, since you must have the $2000 on hand anyway to pay the tax, have the tax withheld and deposit the tax money as part of the conversion instead.  This removes the need for the annualized income method to avoid a penalty.

 

If you don't have money on hand to pay the tax, then do the conversion with withholding but don't top it off.  If you convert $10,000 and you think you are in the 12% bracket, have $1200 withheld.  You will tell turbotax that you converted $8800 and "did something else" with the $1200.  The withholding will be to your credit on your tax return. 

 

If you had extra withholding, to cover the SE tax, that would eliminate that penalty as well.  For example, if you are single, with self-employment of $14K, and the standard deduction is $19K, you could convert up to about $48K and stay in the 12% bracket.  (or convert just $5K and pay nothing).   If you converted $48K, you would have $5760 withheld.  If you added the SE tax and asked for $5900 of withholding, that would cover everything.

 

 

Can I estimate what my underpayment penalty will be?

Thank you very much for these options, Opus 17. I have some more questions, but I think I'll experiment first with using the "annualized income" method on form 2210 and see what the result is first, and then contact you again in the next day or so.

Can I estimate what my underpayment penalty will be?

Hello Opus 17, I have asked questions to your suggestions in blue italics. Thank you for taking the time to read them.

If you have income tax withheld from the conversion, you will avoid any penalty related to the conversion.   Withholding is treated as if it was spread out over the whole year.  

I’ve been told that it’s best to pay the taxes on a Roth conversion out of an after-tax account so that all of the conversion funds can continue to grow tax-free. That would be my preference.

 

If you don't have taxes withheld, you need to follow two steps.

1. Make an estimated payment at www.irs.gov/payments before January 15.

I can make an estimated payment before Jan. 15.

2. When preparing your tax return, enter the penalty interview (even if not automatically prompted) and prepare the penalty form 2210 using the "annualized income" method.  You will need to list your income and tax payments by quarter, and show the IRS that even though your tax payments were not evenly distributed over the year, they were appropriate for the amount of income you received in each quarter.   (Or in your case, you may end up showing that you were $250 short each quarter, but not thousands short.)

I used TurboTax’s Annualized Income section, but I’m not sure I did it correctly. It’s very confusing. Here’s what I did. Please tell me if it is correct:   

In the Annualized Self-Employment Earnings section, I entered my salary by period (I have to complete form C, but I did not reduce my salary by business expenses). Only the first field is a 3 month (quarter) period. The next fields are 5 months, then 8 months, then the whole year. TurboTax computes a figure for the last field. For the first field I entered my salary for 1-1 to 3-31, for the next field I entered the same amount but added my salaries for the months of April and May. I did a similar thing for the field 1-1 to 8-31. 

For the next section, Annualized Adjusted Gross Income, I entered my AGI, which in my simple case includes salary plus interest income, LESS my only deduction, the self-employed health insurance deduction. TurboTax instructed me to leave out one half of my self employment tax. My health insurance premiums and my interest income were about the same every month, , so I just divided those both by 12 to get a monthly amount. I entered amounts in the Annualized Adjusted Gross Income fields in the same way I did for the Annualized Self-Employment Earnings section. Did I do this correctly? The underpayment penalty result was only $21, which seems way too low. 

 

You can also have the taxes withheld by making the conversion in two steps.

1. Make a direct rollover conversion with taxes withheld.

2. Within 60 days, send a payment to the Roth IRA custodian in the amount of the missing taxes, telling them this is also a conversion.

 

For example, to convert $10,000, you could directly convert $10,000 with $2000 withholding.  Then, within 60 days, send a check for $2000 to the Roth IRA telling them this is also a conversion.  (They don't need to know or care that it is part of the same conversion.)  In other words, since you must have the $2000 on hand anyway to pay the tax, have the tax withheld and deposit the tax money as part of the conversion instead.  This removes the need for the annualized income method to avoid a penalty.

So in this case I’m still using converted funds to pay the tax, right? And would this then count as a $12K conversion?

If you don't have money on hand to pay the tax, then do the conversion with withholding but don't top it off.  If you convert $10,000 and you think you are in the 12% bracket, have $1200 withheld.  You will tell turbotax that you converted $8800 and "did something else" with the $1200.  The withholding will be to your credit on your tax return. 

 

If you had extra withholding, to cover the SE tax, that would eliminate that penalty as well.  For example, if you are single, with self-employment of $14K, and the standard deduction is $19K, you could convert up to about $48K and stay in the 12% bracket.  (or convert just $5K and pay nothing).   If you converted $48K, you would have $5760 withheld.  If you added the SE tax and asked for $5900 of withholding, that would cover everything.

I have questions about the two paragraphs above as well, but I’ll let you respond to the other questions first. Many thanks again.

Can I estimate what my underpayment penalty will be?

@Opus 17   When you are around the op has more questions for you.  

Can I estimate what my underpayment penalty will be?

"I’ve been told that it’s best to pay the taxes on a Roth conversion out of an after-tax account so that all of the conversion funds can continue to grow tax-free. That would be my preference."

 

Yes, this is the point of "method 3" below, you still convert the entire amount, but in a way that includes withholding.

 

"I used TurboTax’s Annualized Income section, but I’m not sure I did it correctly."

 

I have never actually had to use the form in real life.  The form and instructions are here, if you want to try and follow IRS instructions instead of turbotax instructions.  https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-2210

The 4 "quarters" of the year are in fact uneven, the first quarter is 3 months, then 2 months, then 3 months, then 4 months.  The federal fiscal year starts October 1, so they want as much tax money by September 30.  Using 4 calendar quarters would put the 4th payment at October 15, in the new year instead of the old year. (I think that's the reason.)

 

"So in this case I’m still using converted funds to pay the tax, right? And would this then count as a $12K conversion?"

 

I can't tell if you understand.  Let me try to explain in a slightly different way.  Here are 3 ways to convert $10,000.

 

Method 1. Contact the traditional IRA and withdraw $10,000, they send you a check, you deposit it in your checking account.  You have 60 days to send the Roth IRA a check for $10,000.  If you do, that counts as a conversion of $10,000.  The Roth IRA needs to know this is a conversion (because the amount is too much for a contribution) but they don't do any checking to verify what you are doing.  You self-certify that it is a conversion, and less than 60 days has passed, and from then on any mistakes are between you and the IRS.  It doesn't even have to be the same money, just the same amount.  You could put the $10,000 in a savings account for 59 days and earn $80 of interest.  You could use the money as a down payment on a new car, and then sell your old car to raise back the $10,000.  As long as $10,000 goes into the Roth in 60 days or less from when you withdrew $10,000 from the traditional IRA, it is a completed rollover, and it doesn't matter if it is the same $10,000 or not.  

 

Separately of course, you pull $2000 from anywhere (same bank account, different bank account, under the mattress) and make an estimated tax payment.

 

Now, because income is assumed to be spread out over the year, but payments happen when they happen, the IRS sees $10,000 income spread out over the whole year and a $2000 lump sum payment late, so they assess a penalty because (in their mind) you should have paid $500 in April, $500 in June, $500 in September, and $500 in January.  You avoid the penalty by using the annualized income method on form 2210.

 

And if you miss the 60 day window to put the money in the Roth, then you have a taxable $10,000 withdrawal, and no way to put the money into any kind of Roth IRA.

 

Method 2. Contact the traditional IRA and perform a direct rollover of $10,000 to the Roth IRA without withholding.  This is your $10,000 conversion.  In many ways, this is more secure and better than an indirect rollover where a check comes to you, because it eliminates any risk of delay or mistake that would break the 60 day window.   Separately, you pull $2000 from somewhere, and make an estimated payment.  You have the same issue with the underpayment penalty and the need to use the annualized income method to minimize your penalty.

 

Method 3.  Contact the traditional IRA and perform a direct rollover of $10,000 to the Roth IRA with $2000 of withholding.  $8000 arrives at the Roth IRA.   If you stop here, you have an $8000 conversion.  But you go one more step.  Go to your bank account or your mattress, get the $2000 you have set aside for taxes, and instead, send that to the Roth IRA.  Tell them it is a conversion.  They don't need to know it is part of the larger conversion, and they don't care.  It doesn't have to be the same money.  As long as you get a total of $10,000 into the Roth IRA within 60 days of starting the process, it counts as a conversion of $10,000.  The IRS still has an additional $2000 of your money, but as withholding instead of as a payment.   

 

Remember that income is assumed to be spread out over the year, but payments happen when they happen.  Withholding is also assumed to be spread out over the year.  So the IRS sees $10,000 of income and $2000 of withholding, and they are happy, and don't assess a penalty for underpayment. 

 

Now, in your case you have an additional problem that, because you did not make estimated payments for your SE tax, the annualized income method will give you an underpayment penalty for the SE tax even if you don't owe an underpayment penalty on the conversion tax.  The trick to avoid this is to have a little extra withheld from the conversion, because -- withholding counts as if it was spread out over the whole year, even if the withholding occurred on one day late in the year because it was withholding from a  lump sum IRA withdrawal instead of spread out over many paychecks. 

 

Now the $21 is not too bad, and it may just be safer for you to make the conversion without withholding, make the separate tax payment, and use the annualized method.  I don't want to go over your head or make you uncomfortable.  But method 3 is an option to take advantage of the way that the IRS looks at withholding differently than payments. 

 

 

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