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Rightfield
Returning Member

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

2024 TT Home & Business Desktop (updated to most current version) is not calculating the proper premium tax credit (Form 8962) together with the Self-Employed Health Insurance Adjustment from a K-1 linked to Form 1095-A.  This is an iterative calculation, since the SEHI adjustment affects the AGI and the AGI affects the PTC and the PTC affects the SEHI adjustment.  I can see the software doing the iterations at the bottom of Form 7206 and as it converges closer to the final result, it does one more iteration and goes way off the rails, shortchanging me by over $2,800!

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12 Replies

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

When the Iterative calculation does not end up being 'even', it uses the Alternative calculation, which often ends up as some missing credit and/or deduction.

 

I haven't checked in a few years so maybe they fixed it, but TurboTax also messes up the calculation if the Iterative calculation fluctuates between certain thresholds, especially the 400% threshold (but can also happen at the 200% and 300%).

 

Here are a couple of options that I can think of:

 

(1) Add a contribution to a Traditional IRA.  That will usually save tax AND increase your credit, and may be enough to get it back to the Iterative calculation rather than the alternative calculation (or get it away from the x00% threshold).

 

(2) Manually calculate it.  Then don't like the 1095-A to the business and enter manually calculated Self Employed Health Insurance deduction in the health insurance spot on the K-1 (as if it was not Marketplace insurance).

 

Rightfield
Returning Member

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

Thanks for your reply, however TT needs to fix this.  The AGI/FPL ratio is always >400% during the iterations, so that's not a contributing factor.  I have a spreadsheet where I do the iterations manually, by adjusting the SEHID and re-calculating the AGI & PTC and it converges nicely.

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

Unfortunately, TurboTax is extremely unlikely to fix it.  This calculation has been around for 11 years and they have never expressed any interest in changing it and have even vehemently claimed there is no problem.

 

Unless it converges to under $1 change, it doesn't fit the criteria for the Iterative calculation and it would use the alternative calculation.  And although 400% is the most common problem, in certain scenarios 100%, 200% or 300% can also cause problems.

 

If you have a spreadsheet, then as I suggested before, just unlink the 1095-A from the business and enter the health insurance cost where K-1 asks for non-Marketplace insurance.  That should result in the proper numbers.

 

Rightfield
Returning Member

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

Yes, I am aware that I can do that and get the numbers right.  My goal here is to get TT to admit that there is a problem and address it.  If my simple spreadsheet can do it, they can surely write software that can do it.  Last year, after phone calls and screens shares with two different agents, they refused to admit that they were incorrectly calculating the MAGI for passive activity loss, until I posted about it here.  All of a sudden, they admitted that there was an error, and they did fix it, albeit after April 15th.  I wasn't willing to wait for the fix, so I did a manual override in order to be able to file my return and get my refund sooner.

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

@AmeliesUncle Thank you for this post. It's very upsetting that TurboTax continues to allow this to continue all these years when it can lead to an SEHID that is much higher than the IRS allows and many people will never even notice that.

 

According to your post above, we can unlink the health insurance from our business by unmarking the box and get correct calculations. If this is so, then it might help me a lot in solving one problem which is needing to calculate different variables at different AGI levels to figure out my optimal Traditional contribution number. Thoughts?

 

I'm still confused though by whether, as a self-employed person filing Schedule C, if you unmark that box, you can actually file your return correctly when it has the health insurance now unlinked from your business the way it would normally link them?

Rightfield
Returning Member

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

Unlinking does not automatically give you the correct calculations, rather it puts the onus on you to do the iterative calculations to determine the best SEHID to take, which will then allow TT to calculate the proper PTC.  The IRS simply requires that the two numbers do not add up to more than what was paid.  The goal is to find the sweet spot such that the PTC and SEHID add up to what was paid (or very close).  Linking the 1095-A to your self-employed income is what is supposed to allow TT to do the iterations automatically, but their algorithm has shortcomings that cause it to fail at times.

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

@Rightfield When you say "The IRS simply requires that the two numbers do not add up to more than what was paid. ", does "what was paid" account for the APTC repayment limitation? What I'm experiencing is that at some AGIs where I qualify for repayment limitation, TurboTax is calculating the SEHID to equal the total of premiums paid + repayment before limitation rather than premiums paid + repayment with limitation. I explain this with an example in my post here

 

Also, if unlinking means we have to manually calculate our SEHID and manually enter it, how in the world do people in this situation use TurboTax to figure out their optimal Traditional contribution as I'm trying to do? I go in and try many different amounts of Traditional contribution to see the results at many different AGIs looking for the sweet spot on different variables (which often happens to be right under a cliff like 400% FPL, exactly where the iteration method problems tend to be, though I'm also get them at some other AGIs too). Manually calculating and entering the SEHID at all of those different AGIs would be, for me, for all practical purposes impossible. Imagine sitting down with a worksheet and calculating SEHID for 25 or 30 AGIs for example and entering every one one by one to see the numbers.

 

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do both in terms of figuring out the best Traditional contribution number or how to actually file if I unlink the health insurance and it doesn't report it still on Schedule 1, Line 17 (though maybe it still does?)

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

I'm testing out the unlinking. So if I do that, I have to go in and manually put in the SEHID and then TurboTax will use that to calculate a PTC. And then I have to play with those to find the right pairing right?

 

But where do I manually put in the SEHID? I'm guessing you're saying to put it in on Schedule C? That would be clearly incorrect and have the wrong impact on my taxes by reducing my net business income (which would have all kinds of trickle-down effects including limiting how much I qualify to contribute to retirement accounts and my QBI. It surely has to go on Schedule 1, Line 17. So are you actually saying to go into Forms mode and just plop the SEHID I calculate onto Schedule 1, Line 17? How does this work? And once I do something like this, is my e-filing really going to go through and pass muster?

 

Another potential problem is Form 7206. I believe it has to be filed if you are claiming the SEHID. But TurboTax doesn't actually complete it fully. Instead for self-employed people with an ACA plan, they just put a footnote regarding that at the bottom of Form 7206 I guess to tell the IRS what's going on. I assume if you unlink the health insurance, that footnote won't show up on Form 7206. That may cause another problem?

 

EDIT: Just after posting this, I had an idea and went to Form 7206 and put the SEHID amount that makes sense on Line 1. Using that it completed Form 7206 and then put the number on Schedule 1, Line 17. And running it through the review, TurboTax says it's ok. So if you can calculate the correct SEHID, this might be a way to then put it in there as a self-employed person that can get it into the right places on the tax form. Hopefully it would actually e-file correctly this way too and not get rejected by the IRS but I don't know that yet. It still seems like a nightmare figuring out the correct SEHID to put in, especially if you need to do so at various levels of Traditional contribution for testing. But at least this may solve one tiny piece of this puzzle.

 

I suspect that part of the reason TurboTax is able to make errors like the one in my case is that it's not fully filling out Form 7206. Line 1 of Form 7206 right off the bat puts a limit on the SEHID at the total actual out-of-pocket cost of health insurance. But since TurboTax is just skipping filling out that line, it's able to completely miscalculate and give an SEHID way above what it should. So it stands to reason that the solution to this might be just fill in Form 7206, Line 1 in Forms mode, thus doing what TurboTax itself should be doing but isn't. So far it seems to be working.

EDIT 2: I also realized that testing different Traditional contribution levels may not be as bad as I thought. The entire problem was that once the APTC repayment limitation kicks in, TurboTax should be factoring that into the SEHID calculation but wasn't. That APTC repayment limitation holds over a very large range of AGIs. If the SEHID, when there is a repayment limitation, is usually the sum of the premiums already paid plus the repayment limitation amount, then you can just manually put that in Form 7206, Line 1 and then you can test Traditional contributions over a wide range of AGIs. The only issue would be if you pass the AGI at another FPL % cliff, in which case you just go to Form 7206, Line 1, change the amount there again, and now you can test Traditional contributions over another very wide range of AGIs without having to change the SEHID each time. I was thinking I'd have to change the SEHID at every single Traditional contribution level I tested. But since the APTC repayment limitation amount remains the same over many AGIs, the sum of previously paid premiums and that repayment limitation also stays the same over many AGIs. Curious if people think this would work as I describe.

Rightfield
Returning Member

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

I put my SEHID on Form 7206.

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

@Rightfield Thanks. You can see from my edits on my post right above you that I just figured out that same idea. You just plop the SEHID you calculate on Line 1 of Form 7206, right? I'm curious what you think of the rest of what I deduced in the edits in my post above you. Did I really figure out a solution to this that's going to let me correctly figure out my optimal Traditional contribution and also file a correct return? Do you know if there's a chance the IRS will reject the e-file for some reason after we've manually filled in Form 7206, Line 1 like this?

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID


@lac528 wrote:

 

According to your post above, we can unlink the health insurance from our business by unmarking the box and get correct calculations. I


 

No, I said if you already know the amounts by means of a manual calculation, you can unlink it and enter the manually calculated Self-Employed Employed Health Insurance deduction (and then the program would calculate the PTC based on that).

 

Incorrect calcualtion of PTC & SEHID

@AmeliesUncle Thank you. Between that previous post I made and now I figured out that that's what it meant.

 

So we have to figure out the SEHID on our own and then manually enter it. How did you go about figuring out the SEHID on your own?

 

And then did you also put the SEHID number you came up with on Form 7206, Line 1? Did this work? Do you know if anyone doing it that way was able to e-file after doing it?

 

Finally, could you possibly read over my post here where I describe my understanding of all this and see if it all makes sense to you? I really appreciate your feedback!

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