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Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B


@DM26 wrote:

I do not believe this is open for discussion and that the IRS requires this election and affirmation to be separately signed and dated by the taxpayer.  In fact this is the reason why TurboTax has not allowed e-filing with this statement.


Did you read the posts in the link I provided in my earlier post? The tax professionals posting on that site do not believe that the IRS requires the statement to be signed.

 

Further, the TurboTax now appears to allow e-filing with the statement for the 2021 tax year.

DM26
Level 3

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

If TurboTax does in fact allow e-filing 2021 tax returns with the Safe Harbor attached then I am grateful as this has been a long battle.  Hopefully others who have e-filed their returns can confirm. For those who have already e-filed I am also curious to know if the statement was signed and uploaded prior to being attached.

 

In regards to your link as to the “Tax Professionals” statement that the signature is not required, I don’t feel that site is trustworthy.  I also have an intuit online account and clicked reply to the same forum.  I did not reply but certainly could if I wanted.  I am attaching a print screen of this.  It appears that forum is no different than this one as most anyone can provide their opinion.

 

Unfortunately this subject continues to be very ambiguous.  Throughout the internet you can find opinions from both sides, I am providing a few stating a signature is required in the links below.  I continue to side with the signature requirement and would rather be protected than not.   

 

 

Untitled.png

Links:

https://support.taxslayerpro.com/hc/en-us/articles/[phone number removed]-QBID-Rental-Property-and-E...

https://www.currentfederaltaxdevelopments.com/blog/2019/3/9/199a-signed-safe-harbor-statement-must-b...

 

The first link may not work since it mistakes a set of numbers to be a phone number and rejects it.  Below is a print screen of some of it's content:

 

TaxSlayer PRO.png

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

Has anyone actually been able to efile with the safe harbor 199A? I got to the end last year before it dis allowed the efile. Pretty sure was AFTER i hit the file now button that it denied the efile.

jbshawaii
New Member

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

Does the IRS finalized safe harbor to allow commercial rental real estate to qualify as a business for QBI deduction make the income subject to earned income self-employment tax?

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B


@jbshawaii wrote:

Does the IRS finalized safe harbor to allow commercial rental real estate to qualify as a business for QBI deduction make the income subject to earned income self-employment tax?


No. Rental real estate is never subject to self-employment tax unless the real estate is being held as a rental by a real estate dealer (who sells real estate in the ordinary course of business) or if the owner provides "substantial services" to renters (i.e., operates the rental property similar to a hotel).

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

So i was just able to efile with the safe harbor (i think) 199a form. 
The strange thing is when i checked the forms before filing the safe harbor statement 199a was there.

But that form was not included after i efiled and downloaded the fed and state returns.

 

But my 1st attempt to efile failed. My agi confirmation requested to confirm my id, because i paper filed last year, was not accepted because i believe my fed return has not been processed. I owed last year and they did cash my check. NY state also lost my returns.

 

So turbo tax guided me to put in 0 for the agi and that did work. But before i re efiled i checked the forms again and saw the safe harbor form and additional worksheets. So i downloaded that before my 2nd efile attempt. Turbotax now showing Fed return as accepted and state returns now pending. 

All had previously been rejected.

DM26
Level 3

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

Thank you for sharing this information.  I also bought TurboTax after claims were made that it now allows the signed attachment.  I am yet to file since I'm still working on some business returns (S corp & partnership) that flow to my personal return.  Hopefully the safe harbor statement was truly attached even though it didn't appear in your saved download file. If not I would hope this falls under TurboTax's 100% accuracy guarantee. 

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

Thanks for the update and glad you were able to file.

Can anyone else confirm they were able to file with the QBI safe harbor form?


Had to pay an accountant $600 to re-type my completed TT tax return last year and and want to make sure i avoid that fiasco.

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

Well i can update that the Fed. and 3 other states all accepted my returns. And i received my Fed refund. So i'm taking that as everything was properly submitted. I'm 99.9% sure it was all properly filed anyway. Seems like the safe harbor is possibly treated like a worksheet?

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

Were you able to efile your return with this statement electronically. I have 4 rental properties to aggregate and have done so in past years. I did paper file in those years due to this statement.  Do you have to continue to attach it each year and sign it each year?

The statement that is printing out for my return has the correct verbage but I am using the exception as I didn't have 250 hours this for 2021 but did in the other years.  I don't want to send in something that says other than the truth. 

Will I have to revise the statement to meet the exception and paper file my entire return, which is rather large? 

Are you more likely to be audited if you paper file?

thanks for you help, I am rather late this year filing my return

DM26
Level 3

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

I used TurboTax for my 2021 Income taxes and was able to attach the Rental Real Estate Enterprise Statement.  I was not able to sign it but according to Rev. Proc. 2019-38 a signature is no longer required. I did however edit the form to include the following on the signature line “{my full name} digitally signed 4/4/22”, just in case.

I’m confused by what you are asking in regards to the 250 hours.  This is a REQUIREMENT each year in order to claim the safe harbor.  What exception are you referring to?  In order to take the safe harbor you have to affirm that you spent 250 hours or more on the Real Estate Enterprise.  Since you are aggregating it is 250 combined for all of you properties not 250 for each.  Also, time spent on numerous things can qualify.  See the end of my post as to what qualifies.  Also, all services DO NOT have to be performed specifically by you to qualify.

Rev. Proc. 2019-38 does allow leniency in regards to the 250 hours IF the enterprise has been in existence for at least 4 years.  Below is per  Rev. Proc. 2019-38: Performance of 250 or more hours of rental services – for a rental real estate enterprise in existence for at least four years, at least 250 hours of rental services must have been performed annually in any three of the five preceding tax years.

Yes, your chances of getting audited are greater if you paper file.  When you electronically file your tax data gets transferred automatically into the tax authorities system avoiding data input error.  When you paper file all of your tax data has to be manually inputted into their system.  As your tax return is comprised of numerous pages this provides greater chance that something will be entered incorrectly which may trigger an alert where your return has to be reviewed.

I am attaching some information which may be useful.  I am also attaching the Aggregation & Enterprise forms I used with personal information X’d out.

Good luck.

 

The IRS previously released Notice 2019-07, which provided a proposed safe harbor under which a rental real estate enterprise would qualify as a trade or business solely for purposes of section 199A. The IRS finalized this guidance on Sept. 24, 2019 with the release of Rev. Proc. 2019-38. While substantially similar to Notice 2019-07, the new revenue procedure does deviate in some notable areas

  1. Performance of 250 or more hours of rental services – for a rental real estate enterprise in existence for at least four years, at least 250 hours of rental services must have been performed annually in any three of the five preceding tax years. For enterprises that have been in existence less than four years, the hour requirement must be satisfied in the tax year under consideration.
  2. Triple net leases – the safe harbor is not available to triple net lease arrangements. Under the new guidance, a triple net lease is defined to include a lease that requires the tenant to pay taxes, fees and insurance and to pay for maintenance activities, in addition to rent and utilities. The previous guidance defined triple net leases in a similar manner, but referenced lease agreements where the tenant was responsible for maintenance activities. The revised guidance clarifies that the key factor is who pays for those activities.
  3. Maintenance of separate books and records – for each rental real estate enterprise, the enterprise must maintain separate books and records. If an enterprise consists of more than one property, this requirement may be satisfied if books and records are maintained for each property and are subsequently consolidated.
  4. Maintenance of contemporaneous records of rental activities – the enterprise must maintain contemporaneous records documenting the hours, description and dates of all services performed, as well as who performed the services. This requirement is now applicable to tax years beginning after Dec. 31, 2019.
  5. Attachment to the taxpayer’s timely filed tax return – a taxpayer relying on Rev. Proc. 2019-38 must attach a statement to the return that describes all rental real estate properties included in each rental real estate enterprise for each taxable year in which the taxpayer relies on the safe harbor.
  6. Taxpayer signature - The revenue procedure eliminates the previous requirement that the taxpayer sign, under penalty of perjury, a statement confirming that all requirements of the safe harbor have been satisfied.

 

250 Hours of Real Estate Rental Services

  • advertising to rent the real estate
  • negotiating and signing leases
  • verifying information in tenant applications
  • collecting rent
  • daily operation, maintenance, and repair of the property
  • managing of the real estate
  • purchasing of materials, and
  • supervising employees and independent contractors.

 

Such services don't all have to be performed by you, the property owner. They may also be performed by your employees, agents, or independent contractors. For example, if you hire a real estate management company, the time they spend managing your property counts toward the 250 hour requirement.

 

The following types of activities do not count toward the 250 hours:

  • financial or investment management activities, such as arranging financing
  • procuring property
  • studying and reviewing financial statements or reports on operations
  • planning, managing, or constructing long-term capital improvements to your property, or
  • hours spent traveling to and from the real estate.

 

 

 

DM26
Level 3

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

I used TurboTax for my 2021 Income taxes and was able to attach the Rental Real Estate Enterprise Statement.  I was not able to sign it but according to Rev. Proc. 2019-38 a signature is no longer required. I did however edit the form to include the following on the signature line “{my full name} digitally signed 4/4/22”, just in case.

I’m confused by what you are asking in regards to the 250 hours.  This is a REQUIREMENT each year in order to claim the safe harbor.  What exception are you referring to?  In order to take the safe harbor you have to affirm that you spent 250 hours or more on the Real Estate Enterprise.  Since you are aggregating it is 250 combined for all of you properties not 250 for each.  Also, time spent on numerous things can qualify.  See the end of my post as to what qualifies.

Rev. Proc. 2019-38 does allow leniency in regards to the 250 hours IF the enterprise has been in existence for at least 4 years.  Below is per  Rev. Proc. 2019-38: Performance of 250 or more hours of rental services – for a rental real estate enterprise in existence for at least four years, at least 250 hours of rental services must have been performed annually in any three of the five preceding tax years.

 

Yes, your chances of getting audited are greater if you paper file.  When you electronically file your tax data gets transferred automatically into the tax authorities system avoiding data input error.  When you paper file all of your tax data has to be manually inputted into their system.  As your tax return is comprised of numerous pages this provides greater chance that something will be entered incorrectly which may trigger an alert where your return has to be reviewed.

 

I am attaching some information which may be useful.  I am also attaching the Aggregation & Enterprise forms I used with personal information X’d out.

Good luck.

 

The IRS previously released Notice 2019-07, which provided a proposed safe harbor under which a rental real estate enterprise would qualify as a trade or business solely for purposes of section 199A. The IRS finalized this guidance on Sept. 24, 2019 with the release of Rev. Proc. 2019-38. While substantially similar to Notice 2019-07, the new revenue procedure does deviate in some notable areas

  1. Performance of 250 or more hours of rental services – for a rental real estate enterprise in existence for at least four years, at least 250 hours of rental services must have been performed annually in any three of the five preceding tax years. For enterprises that have been in existence less than four years, the hour requirement must be satisfied in the tax year under consideration.
  2. Triple net leases – the safe harbor is not available to triple net lease arrangements. Under the new guidance, a triple net lease is defined to include a lease that requires the tenant to pay taxes, fees and insurance and to pay for maintenance activities, in addition to rent and utilities. The previous guidance defined triple net leases in a similar manner, but referenced lease agreements where the tenant was responsible for maintenance activities. The revised guidance clarifies that the key factor is who pays for those activities.
  3. Maintenance of separate books and records – for each rental real estate enterprise, the enterprise must maintain separate books and records. If an enterprise consists of more than one property, this requirement may be satisfied if books and records are maintained for each property and are subsequently consolidated.
  4. Maintenance of contemporaneous records of rental activities – the enterprise must maintain contemporaneous records documenting the hours, description and dates of all services performed, as well as who performed the services. This requirement is now applicable to tax years beginning after Dec. 31, 2019.
  5. Attachment to the taxpayer’s timely filed tax return – a taxpayer relying on Rev. Proc. 2019-38 must attach a statement to the return that describes all rental real estate properties included in each rental real estate enterprise for each taxable year in which the taxpayer relies on the safe harbor.
  6. Taxpayer signature - The revenue procedure eliminates the previous requirement that the taxpayer sign, under penalty of perjury, a statement confirming that all requirements of the safe harbor have been satisfied.

 

250 Hours of Real Estate Rental Services

  • advertising to rent the real estate
  • negotiating and signing leases
  • verifying information in tenant applications
  • collecting rent
  • daily operation, maintenance, and repair of the property
  • managing of the real estate
  • purchasing of materials, and
  • supervising employees and independent contractors.

 

Such services don't all have to be performed by you, the property owner. They may also be performed by your employees, agents, or independent contractors. For example, if you hire a real estate management company, the time they spend managing your property counts toward the 250 hour requirement.

The following types of activities do not count toward the 250 hours:

  • financial or investment management activities, such as arranging financing
  • procuring property
  • studying and reviewing financial statements or reports on operations
  • planning, managing, or constructing long-term capital improvements to your property, or
  • hours spent traveling to and from the real estate.

 

 

 

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

Thanks for all for all that good information. By "exception" I did mean the "at least 250 hours of rental services must have been performed annually in any three of the five preceding tax years". We have 4 rentals which require a lot of maintenance (wells and septics).  2021 we had no turnovers with COVID but usually we do and they take a ton of time.  We have one coming up and it will be time consuming due to tenant damages, so I think we are safe to take the QBI for 2021.  

I see no way to "edit" the QBI statement in my software. In fact that form doesn't even appear until I go to print the return.  So if I were to edit Turbo Tax verbage about the 250 hours I would have to paper file, which I don't want to do.  Any ideas? 

I don't feel real comfortable sending in the verbage about the 250 hours when that's not exactly true. 

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

My mistake, I found the form, it is there.  I can't edit it. I could try to override but then it would eliminate my ability to efile. A CPA friend thinks it is OK to leave the verbage as is as I am relying on the software. I surely do not want to file my rather large return paper. (I had to file a paper return last year and I have had a lot of issues with the IRS sending small bills and saying there are computational errors etc  when there aren't. 

DM26
Level 3

Tax Year Prior to 2020: Unable to efile due to QBI Deduction Worksheet Schedule B

If you want to edit the RREE Statement and/or Schedule B (Form 8995-A) form you should be able to click- the View tab, then Forms then scroll down to the form to select.  Within the various user data fields you should be able to change, add or delete.

 

In regards to the 250 hours you are responsible for maintaining a log of all related service hours however this log will likely never be seen by any tax authority unless the small chance you get audited. The possibilities for service hours are almost endless.  I’ve seen many exaggerate the time & even log things whether or not they were actual.  As long as a log is maintained and reasonable I don’t think the IRS or state would question it in the unlikely chance you were audited.  FYI I am a CPA as well.

 

Good luck.

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