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Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.


@DianeW777 wrote:

You are correct.  There is no misinformation in the post by @SusanY1, on the contrary it's valuable and first hand experience.  Should an IRS review come about it will definitely look at factors such as time and product receipt volume to make a determination.  You can follow the guidance provided for your situation.

 

@soupnazi02 


Hello @DianeW777 

will amazon vine 1099 NEC qualify for qualified Business Income (QBI) and will this qualify for QBI deduction? If I chose the self employment income?

 

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

I'm not sure where you heard that filing your 1099 NEC from Amazon Vine voices program under "Hobby Income" leads to an IRS Audit. 

I filed mine as Hobby Income my tax agents advice, TurboTax tax agent and veteran Viners, and did not get flagged for audit. I've already received my refund.  My 2023 Vine 1099 NEC was $7,900.  It is not SE income and you can't deduct expenses from it so you should be assured that hobby income is not the wrong way to go.  But it's everyone's own personal choice to determine what fits their tax situation, best. 

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

Your 1099 NEC form that you received from Amazon states on it that it is for "Vine".  That's all the proof the IRS needs.  "Vine voicers" don't receive monetary compensation. Why pay self employment taxes when you don't have to? 

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.


@Renigma wrote:

Your 1099 NEC form that you received from Amazon states on it that it is for "Vine".  That's all the proof the IRS needs.  "Vine voicers" don't receive monetary compensation. Why pay self employment taxes when you don't have to? 


Hello @Renigma 

 

my 1099 NEC  mention vine on the 2nd page but does mentioned it is not information provided to IRS.  
the page where I think it’s sent to IRS is the 1099 NEC came from Amazon.com. 

I was reading that this is considered “bartering”, hence subjective interpretation by whoever reads the tax returns.  Bartering can be considered SE.

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

Ooo!

I've never thought of the coupon comparison before......very very interesting take...

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

I plan to amend my taxes based on the fact that Amazon does not give us ownership of the items until they've been used for 6 months.  They specifically deny permission to give away or sell them for that time, which is them claiming control over them.  So when they give ownership to us, the item is 6 months old, in used condition, so it should be valued at garage sale prices, is my thought.

 

I figured since Amazon outright ignores every request for an amended 1099, probably best to file as is, then appeal for correction with documentation later.  Any thoughts on that from an expert?

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

According to Amazon, we take ownership when the item is delivered. The six month rule is just one of the terms for participating in the vine program. There are a lot of things that feel like they shouldn't apply to viners, and this is just one of them. Your best bet to get the most favorable outcome is to speak personally with a professional. The advice you'll get on here is about as good or worse than what you can get on reddit. Nothing is free, and this includes getting help figuring out how much money you owe the government. Sounds weird when you say it out loud doesn't it? But it's the American way, and the backbone of this billion dollar industry, the reason Intuit exists at all. 

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

Well, if they maintain control of it through Terms, then they're not releasing ownership of it.  If you have ownership, you have full control.  They're trying to have it both ways, disclaiming ownership, but maintaining control.

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

Thank you for this information. Where exactly did you put the amount shown on your 1099-NEC? 

 

Amazon sent me a 1099-NEC. The Instructions for Recipient say to report the amount on the "Other Income" line on Schedule 1, which would be line 8z. However, the instructions for Schedule 1, lines 8a through 8z say: "Don't report on lines 8a through 8z any nonemployee compensation shown on Form 1099-NEC unless it isn't self-employment income, such as income from a hobby. Instead, see the Instructions for Recipient included on Form 1099-NEC." I sure feel like I am being sent in a circle. 

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

@uglysquid 

I'm not trying to argue semantics with you, just what Amazon considers transfer of ownership. You can destroy, sell, gift, or do whatever you want with the items when you are in possession of them. You would not be commiting any crimes because you are the owner of that item. Amazon would like just kick you out if they got wind of it. They can kick you out at any point for any reason, and they do not need to provide one to you. I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

@soupnazi01 Perhaps I am, that's why I went ahead and filed as is, to be safe, with an eye toward amending if possible.  Whether there is room for changes or not, it seemed like the best route to me.

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

The thing is a lot of people see filing this as SE is automatically worse because of the additional taxes you will owe. Depending on how you did this throughout the tax year, you can take full advantage of deductions that you would not have access to if this is claimed as a hobby income. Sometimes you need to be creative and looks for possible ways to work things that would reduce you tax liability, but regardless, it has to be part of a plan. And I would not know all the different ways to do this, I would need to hire an expert. For instance, one thing I have been thinking about are the ETV prices, and how many listings have either discounts or coupons. Some say that coupons or discount do not apply to an items FMV, that those discounts are not available to everyone. But I believe you can make compare it to similar products for finding it's fair market value. Amazon has never been the cheapest option, it's just the fattest option. 

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

Hi!  I haven't filed yet, so researching how to do this (and why a specific way to file).  I've never filed a hobby before.  Are there any ways to counter the reported value (income) that Amazon provides?  If it's filed as SE income, why can't there be any expenses deducted? It takes a lot of time an effort to manage a Vine program. I realize there is no capital outlay for purchasing items.  However, I have purchased tubs and a filing system for each item in the tubs, because it's overtaking my house; and also the cost of a storage shed until I can rightfully sell the items, put them in auctions, etc., after using and reviewing.  New at this, so questions and answers are not obvious to me yet.  Thanks for any input.  If there is no expense offset, then it's going to be WAY more expensive in taxes than I wanted, because I would never purchase most of the items outright. Also, I am retired, and live off SS and savings.  Up til now, no taxes due.  

Beverly99
New Member

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

Yes, that's exactly right, I think.

My opinion. Your schedule C should always include the full 1099 ETV amount in the line 1 "Gross Receipts or Sales". Technically, the value in that 1099NEC is in error, and we as Viners should every year write to Amazon requesting they amend the 1099 to reflect a reasonable fair market value, but I think we can assume that Amazon will refuse to do so and might just kick us out of the program for asking for special treatment that could set a precedent, so we can claim intimidation as reason for not doing so. (Amazon could also rightly claim that they cannot estimate to what extent the item will be salable after your 6 months of use and testing, so the ETV is thus the maximum theoretical value and they cannot ever give an accurate 1099.) Instead, it's up to the taxpayer to make adjustments to the inflated ETV numbers in schedule C line 2, "Returns and allowances". The fair value of the payment-in-kind is its reasonable lawn sale value at the end of six months use, test, and possibly destructive testing. It's entirely fair to assert that an item has zero value at the end of the test period. For instance, I order a toy from RFY and my grandson visits me, and I let him play with it. He breaks it. The breaking of the toy is integral to my "business". I then go to my spreadsheet and mark that item's expected used value as being zero. It's full ETV now appears on the allowances line where it is subtracted from the line 1 amount and results in the net income for that item to become zero. (I think this makes more sense than putting its value under cost of goods sold line 42). To do this, good records need to be kept. I don't know how much I've been "paid" until the test and the 6 months are over. My spreadsheet has places to check off whether the item survived testing in usable condition, or it was damaged, destroyed, deemed unsalable, and its disposition: sold (for $xx), retained as personal property, recycled, donated, scrapped, etc. If by chance an item is adjusted to zero but later sold, it needs to have its allowance "recaptured". The logical place for that is line 6, "Other income" with a notation that it is recapture of previous devaluation allowances. If this is done the Viner ends up paying some tax, but no conflicts show up in the forms, and if every single item is documented in this way, to the IRS there is solid evidence that the Viner had a consistent, logical and appropriate accounting method. To my way of thinking, this gives the best possible tax treatment to the Viner, and still results in some desirable tax income for the IRS. There's absolutely no reason to take the ETV stated on the 1099 as your net income if you're willing to do the bookkeeping. The potential savings are worth it. And any choice that results in self employment income, even a small amount, for the IRS, is likely to be satisfactory to their eyes.  Opinion?

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

I think that is an excellent strategy.  Some of the Vine products I receive never work or fully function.  I delete those from income as damaged goods.  As for whether Amazon would ever adjust a tax form, not on your life!  They derive benefit from getting us to write reviews in exchange for 'free' products.  I imagine they treat it as a business expense.  If so, it would make sense for them to use the estimated value in the write-off.  On the other hand, I'd be curious if the Amazon tax folks place a value on our reviews.  There's no guaranty an Amazon Vine review truly moves the needle when someone contemplates ordering a product, so most reviews may well be worthless for tax (and other - wink!) purposes.  Along that line, it's too bad Amazon has eliminated from our profile pages the info about how many likes our reviews have collected. 

 

Regardless, we can be sure that whatever Amazon does maximizes the company's benefit irrespective of how much actual benefit accrues to Viners.  That's simply standard business practice. 

 

Ken

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