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Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.


@DianeW777 wrote:

This program could easily be considered a hobby.  You are not engaged in the activity for a profit and you have no product to sell to customers since each product is used so that you can create a review for Amazon.  

 

The IRS may eventually give better guidance on this particular activity, but in the mean time there is no profit motive and you are being taxed on what Amazon has decided is the value of those products provided to you free of charge, essentially paying you for your review. 

  • The Vine is a product review program created by Amazon to provide customers with honest and unbiased reviews. Amazon Vine invites its top reviewers to receive a product for free in exchange for a review. This incentive program benefits both the reviewer and the seller.

@soupnazi02 


Yes this is the dilemma many are facing and without any guidance many including myself are unsure of what to do. I will most likely need to hire a professional to help me sort this out. I think one part of this that makes many question the hobby aspect is the amount of income that is reported. It can be in excess of 50k for many, and it's hard to fathom any hobby that could earn that much. The catch is that it is not cash, and the products we receive have artificially inflated prices. 

DianeW777
Expert Alumni

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

I understand.  The reason the IRS is requiring Amazon or Vine to use the Form 1099-NEC is because a service is being performed and the individuals are being paid in product.  This is likely being associated with 'bartering' income.  It's quite similar and bartering is income as well.

 

In my original answer it was clear you must make the choice of hobby or business. The IRS will review volume and consistency to make a determination whether it is a business or a hobby. 

 

@soupnazi02 

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Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

Respectfully addressing some of the statements made:

 

1) Whether or not Vine activities are self-employment income remains to be seen. I'd argue that for those who actively engage in reselling the products they receive, it absolutely is.  This is what the IRS says about it: "To help simplify things, the IRS has established factors taxpayers must consider when determining whether their activity is a business or hobby.

These factors are whether:

  • The taxpayer carries out activity in a businesslike manner and maintains complete and accurate books and records.
  •  The taxpayer puts time and effort into the activity to show they intend to make it profitable.
  • The taxpayer depends on income from the activity for their livelihood.
  • The taxpayer has personal motives for carrying out the activity such as general enjoyment or relaxation.
  • The taxpayer has enough income from other sources to fund the activity
  • Losses are due to circumstances beyond the taxpayer's control or are normal for the startup phase of their type of business.
  • There is a change to methods of operation to improve profitability.
  • Taxpayer and their advisor have the knowledge needed to carry out the activity as a successful business.
  • The taxpayer was successful in making a profit in similar activities in the past.
  • Activity makes a profit in some years and how much profit it makes.
  • The taxpayer can expect to make a future profit from the appreciation of the assets used in the activity.

All factors, facts, and circumstances with respect to the activity must be considered. No one factor is more important than another. If a taxpayer receives income from an activity that is carried on with no intention of making a profit, they must report the income they receive on Schedule 1, Form 1040, line 8.

 

2) People are also expected and encouraged by Amazon to write reviews for items they buy outright. I'm not self-employed simply because I choose to write a review.  Influencers on social media who receive free products? That's a business. They actively produce content, cultivate followers, likes, and views, engage in comments, etc... It's a brand. We often get grouped with them, but we're not the same.

 

3) The majority of the goods have no resale value. Going back to #1, if I begin to keep track of broken items received and ARV vs. inflated cost, then am I running a business and proving that point to the IRS, or am I just keeping track for tax purposes? Huge gray area. 

 

4) You talk about audits and penalties and interest happening to Viners who classify their activities wrong.  I haven't heard of that occurring and looked for but found no tax court cases. People are already scared and confused, so that comment really doesn't help. The most important thing is that people report, with the best of intentions, whatever they receive.

 

TLDR, Per the IRS: "...the bottom line is that a business operates to make a profit." Profit relates to income and financial gain, and financial gain relates to earnings, selling, and purchasing. It all concerns money. The majority of Viners are not running a business.  Law is my area of expertise. Everything hinges on definitions. This is about income tax, earnings, and profit. All of those relate to money received.  There is no money received by the average Viner who isn't reselling. 

 

 

 

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

It is very confusing, because technically - if we work - it's with the independent sellers. Amazon is the middle man and shouldn't be filing a 1099. All they do is connect us with sellers.

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

You say that all this relates to money received, but isn't product with a cash value equivalent to money received?

 

I agree about your point 3 being a gray area. I am just keeping track for tax purposes.  But I guess taccounting for my business to not seem as though I am more profitable than I am is a way of conducting business in a businesslike manner.

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

(New account name. Had trouble signing in with old one. Still The Cow. lol)

 

A store coupon has a cash value. I don't pay income tax on a free chicken sandwich. I also receive many free samples from companies without any tax info or ARV attached at all. Some expect reviews but never enforce it.

 

The IRS has a website. There they specifically state that while some people may make a profit from a hobby, it does not mean they are self-employed. That's why they give you a list of things to ask yourself and to consider before you make the distinction.  

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

Since Amazon does not give us full control over the items for 6 months after we receive them, shouldn't the value of the item be its garage sale value in its used condition after that 6 month period? 

 

How do we adjust that on our return, or is it best to simply file with the info Amazon provided, then file an amendment with explanation afterward?  I figure that way you pay up front, no red flags, then MAYBE get your money back...

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

For the 2023 Tax year, I filed my 1099 NEC from Amazon Vine under "Hobby Income".  I did this because: 

 

1.  It's not Self Employment income.   I'm not going to pay SE tax rate. 

2.  A tax agent verified with me that it is sporadic/hobby income. 

We make no money from Amazon reviews.  We can't sell the items for at least 6 months.  It's not Self Employment.  But if you want to pay a higher tax rate, you can file it under self employment. You won't be wrong in doing so.  But neither will those of us that filed it as hobby income.  

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

It is interesting how everyone sees Amazon Vine differently.

 

We are new to the program  in 2023 and we are going to:

1. Treat it as SE income (Schedule C)

2. Take advantage of the ability to charge off some of our health care we pay for against it

3. Put money ~92% (up to IRA limits) of the income into an IRA to offset the income taxes 

 

 

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

 


@SusanY1 wrote:

The IRS and Amazon concluded after much discussion that for most people, Vine activities are self-employment income.  Amazon isn't fraudulently reporting anything - they are doing what the IRS explicitly told them to do (around 2015).  Logic doesn't always come into play with taxes, unfortunately. 

While a review isn't a requirement, it's an expectation.  So, in essence, there's an exchange of goods for services. (This is how the IRS views it.)

The products are given with the expectation of a review, or they stop sending them.    Also on the side of the argument making it "self-employment" income is  that it is generally recurring "revenue" (after all you can get between 3-8 items per day).  You also select the items that you want - they're not random like a sweepstakes prize.  

Promotional items, sweepstakes prizes, and the like are also taxable income, but they are generally "other" income as there is nothing expected in return for them.  Something's expected in return for the items you receive through the Vine program, though, even if it's not required.  

For someone who starts the Vine program and drops out a week later, "other" income or hobby income may be easier to rationalize- but it's difficult to argue there's a "hobby" here and that the income is incidental to that hobby.  The IRS defines hobbies as "an activity that a person pursues because they enjoy it with no intention of making a profit".  

I do like to shop - but it's going to be an uphill battle for me to convince the IRS that it's a "hobby" to "shop" on Vine.  The main reason to do it is for the free stuff!  That's "profit", if not in the sense of cash in your pocket.  Even though I enjoy writing the reviews, I'm not sending the items back after I review them.  Therefore, I've provided a service in exchange for something of value. 

The IRS has audited many Vine participants who have chosen to reclassify the income as hobby or other income, and the IRS determines that it is self-employment income in that process nearly every (if not every) time.   By then there are penalties and interest on top of the tax. 

The determination of hobby income is fact and circumstance based, so there may be some isolated cases of Viners who qualify to report their income as a hobby.  It won't be the norm, though.  

I am a financial professional,  a tax professional, and a Viner.  The income is self-employment income in the eyes of the IRS most of the time, whether we like it or not.    It's better to report it this way than to end up with penalties and interest on top of the tax due.  


@SusanY1 

 

when entering vine program as business/ Self Employment Income, do i check YES as qualified Business Income (QBI) and will this qualify for QBI deduction?

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

I would be very very careful about filing Vine as SE and then taking healthcare deductions.  That alone, may trigger an audit.  And I don't see why it's so "interesting" to see how viners file and report their 1099 NEC.  Ultimately, you have 2 choices.  File it as self employment or Hobby Income.  Why make it more difficult?  Tax rate on SE is Higher, so it makes sense to me to follow my CPA's advice, and file under Hobby.  Which I did, and already received my refund.  

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

Comparing is probably not the best method one should use for determining how to file this income because it is so dependent on particular circumstances. Some people do use vine like a business, resell items they've received, spend a significant amount of time engaged in the activity, etc. Others do it infrequently and don't sell anything they receive. I personally am filing as a hobby and if they want a statement why I chose that, I have a document prepared to defend my reasoning 

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

Agreed!!  Although I don't understand how so many viners can be comfortably morally, selling the products, specifically before the 6 month ownership rule.  You'd think they would be a nervous wreck all the time, never knowing If they Will be found out by Amazon and booted out of the program.  Idk, maybe it's just me.  My 10 year old says im too much of a "good doer".  Lol. She thinks I'm too self disciplined and morally righteous.  But then again, she's comparing me to her Dad, and my husband is the complete opposite of me, and the most morally corrupt. 

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.

As for "interesting". Not sure what else to call it since there is no one definitive answer.

 

As for taking the healthcare deductions, why wouldn't I? If I am treating it as SE and I am paying taxes as SE how is it any different than any other SE income? 

 

If it does trigger an audit I would rather it triggers one now rather than later when I have more Vine spending in 2024 taxyear.

Business income vs Hobby income vs Misc/other income. Also Amazon Vine Program.


@SusanY1 wrote:

The IRS and Amazon concluded after much discussion that for most people, Vine activities are self-employment income.  Amazon isn't fraudulently reporting anything - they are doing what the IRS explicitly told them to do (around 2015).  Logic doesn't always come into play with taxes, unfortunately. 

While a review isn't a requirement, it's an expectation.  So, in essence, there's an exchange of goods for services. (This is how the IRS views it.)

The products are given with the expectation of a review, or they stop sending them.    Also on the side of the argument making it "self-employment" income is  that it is generally recurring "revenue" (after all you can get between 3-8 items per day).  You also select the items that you want - they're not random like a sweepstakes prize.  

Promotional items, sweepstakes prizes, and the like are also taxable income, but they are generally "other" income as there is nothing expected in return for them.  Something's expected in return for the items you receive through the Vine program, though, even if it's not required.  

For someone who starts the Vine program and drops out a week later, "other" income or hobby income may be easier to rationalize- but it's difficult to argue there's a "hobby" here and that the income is incidental to that hobby.  The IRS defines hobbies as "an activity that a person pursues because they enjoy it with no intention of making a profit".  

I do like to shop - but it's going to be an uphill battle for me to convince the IRS that it's a "hobby" to "shop" on Vine.  The main reason to do it is for the free stuff!  That's "profit", if not in the sense of cash in your pocket.  Even though I enjoy writing the reviews, I'm not sending the items back after I review them.  Therefore, I've provided a service in exchange for something of value. 

The IRS has audited many Vine participants who have chosen to reclassify the income as hobby or other income, and the IRS determines that it is self-employment income in that process nearly every (if not every) time.   By then there are penalties and interest on top of the tax. 

The determination of hobby income is fact and circumstance based, so there may be some isolated cases of Viners who qualify to report their income as a hobby.  It won't be the norm, though.  

I am a financial professional,  a tax professional, and a Viner.  The income is self-employment income in the eyes of the IRS most of the time, whether we like it or not.    It's better to report it this way than to end up with penalties and interest on top of the tax due.  


Hello @SusanY1 

if I chose the 1099 NEC from Amazon Vine as self employment income. When I used the TurboTax desktop it also asked if this is a qualified Business Income (QBI), will this qualify for QBI deduction? 
should I checked yes in this section?

when I do it did reduce my tax due.  
I would appreciate help on this.

thanks

 

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