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The penalty is 6% per year for each year the disallowed contribution Cn is not removed by Dec 31.
SUM [ ( 6% x Cn ) x n ] sum over n
where n is from 18 to 1 by -1
and
Cn is the contribution you made in Year (2024- n )
If SUM ( Cn ) is removed in 2024 there is no penalty for 2024.
Any earnings you got on this money will remain in the Roth IRA.
If the excess is in the account as of 12/31/24, it will be part of your 2024 return, including any penalties that might apply.
One way to remove the excess contributions for prior years, is to simply take a regular distribution of the excess contributions. You can leave the earnings from the excess contributions in the account for now. And, removal of the excess contributions is not taxable, because you can always remove contributions from a Roth IRA tax-free.
Depending on how your investments have performed, it is possible that if the 6% penalty was calculated for every year, it would wipe out the rest of the earnings. Or, if you have earned more than 6% on average, there might be a little left over.
The statute of limitations is an interesting issue here. Normally, the statute of limitations is 3 years from the filing deadline, or 6 years in case of fraud or a misstatement of tax of more than 25%. So it is possible that the IRS can't reach back more than 6 years even if they wanted to. On the other hand, because your most recent returns are false (because they are tied to past returns that are false) that might open the door to go all the way back. I just don't know.
If you can't get legal advice before the end of the year, the most I would consider doing is a regular distribution of your excess contributions, leaving the earnings in the account while you work out what to do next. But, I would really hope you can get a full legal opinion before the end of the year.
even if money is removed now, 2024 tax return should show resolution of the excess removed for prior years.
The current tax year is treated differently.
If you made a contribution in 2024, you can reverse this one by Tax day 4/15/2025 and pay any earnings on that amount.
The custodian has to calculate the allocable earnings.
Since Republicans intend to claw back the $80 billion IRS funding,
audit risk is falling again.
@fanfare wrote:
Since Republicans intend to claw back the $80 billion IRS funding,
audit risk is falling again.
That's a rather short-sighted argument. If the Roth IRA is not corrected, it presents an ongoing audit risk for the rest of the taxpayer's life, plus the lives of their heirs, if the Roth IRA is inherited. Who's to say what audit risks will be in the future. Maybe the IRS will actually develop a working computer system that doesn't run on 1960s code that can identify this situation automatically.
I don't know that I would perform the special "removal of excess contributions" procedure for 2024, if there are 2024 contributions, simply because that would mean filing a form 5329 that you know is incorrect. Since the deadline to remove excess contributions is April 15 next year, I suppose the best thing to do in the short term is to make a regular withdrawal of all contributions up to 2023 (before December 31, 2024), then contact a pro. The pro can get an extension of the 2024 deadline, and can decide whether or not to use the special procedure on the 2024 contributions before April 15, 2025.
Due to the complexity of this situation over the past 18 years I am in agreement that I do not know what Statue of Limitations Rules might apply. I also know that the thought of Amending that many past Tax returns and the associated costs to do it with a Tax Professional can be excessive. The one Tax Professional I contacted about this said his rate was $400/hr
The reality is that even with all the excessive Contributions my Roth IRA has only made minimal profits due to some bad investments over all these years.
The associated costs and hassle to amend all my returns may cost as much as the penalties assessed. The amount of paperwork involved is mind boggling as I have researched this.
As I mentioned I am seriously considering just cashing out my entire Roth IRA and placing the proceeds into a CD or Money Market account and wait and see what happens with the IRS.
I would be happy to just pay a Penalty fee on the Profits made above the amount that I have contributed yearly for the last 18 years.
My thought is that If I cash out my entire Roth IRA that there would be no more yearly assessed Penalties since the money is no longer in my Roth account and I could then deal with any IRS issues after they flagged this.
1_Does anyone know what I might expect in the way of notification from the IRS after I cashed out my IRA?
Would they contact me by mail about the Penalties or assess Penalties on my next Tax Returns?
2_Is it reasonable to think that I might be able to negotiate a settlement with the IRS without still having to do all the associated paperwork after the fact of cashing out the Roth?
3_Can anyone see any potential problems with me just cashing out my Roth and taking the wait/see approach from the IRS?
4_Any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated
BTW_Thanks to All who have responded. While I blame my previous Tax Preparer for never spotting this I honestly never knew there were limitations based on Income and it amazes me that after all those years I never read anything that tipped me off to that fact. How that alluded me I will always question.
I just faithfully contributed the Max amount per year to my Roth thinking I was doing the right thing for my Retirement.
Thank you for your reply
Much Appreciated
1. When you make a withdrawal from a Roth IRA, you get a 1099-R that you must report on your tax return. As mentioned, withdrawals of contributions are tax-free. If you are under age 59-1/2, withdrawal of earnings are subject to income tax plus a 10% penalty. Your tax software will ask you about prior contributions and prior withdrawals, to be able to calculate how much is earnings subject to tax.
Interestingly, I think that if you completely withdrew ALL Roth IRA funds and paid the tax and penalties on any earnings, that might start a final 6 year clock on audits, since your 2025 and future returns would not be carrying over any incorrect facts. But I am not a lawyer or CPA.
2. Probably not. You can't really negotiate a settlement without knowing your exposure, and I don't think the IRS would accept an offer without themselves calculating it themselves to know what they are giving up. So you would also want your own calculation.
You can do this manually, since you would only need to calculate form 8606 and form 5329 for each year. You can download prior year forms and instructions from the IRS web site. That won't include interest and penalties, but you could probably determine the base amount of the 6% penalties without too much trouble.
In fact, if you don't have any withdrawals, you probably don't need the exact forms. Your calculation might look something like this.
Year | Excess contribution | Cumulative Excess | 6% penalty | Cumulative penalty |
2006 | $4000 | $4000 | $240 | $240 |
2007 | $4000 | $8000 |
$480 |
$720 |
2008 | $5000 | $13,000 | $780 | $1500 |
2009 | $5000 | $18,000 | $1080 | $2580 |
Etc. |
Of course, this assumes that you were never eligible, you contributed the maximum, all your contributions were excess, and you never made conversions and withdrawals. If your situation is more complicated you might need to use the forms. But I think that before you contacted the IRS (on your own or via a tax professional), you need at least an estimate of your exposure.
3. Not an attorney, but if you completely cashed out, paid tax and penalties on the earnings, that might start a final 6 year clock on audit issues.
4. If you do the rough calculation (which ignores penalties and interest), you can then decide whether you want to risk doing nothing, or at least talk to a professional about whether you should approach the IRS for an offer in compromise.
https://www.irs.gov/payments/offer-in-compromise
It doesn't appear you would be eligible to request an offer in compromise until you filed all the amended returns to document the amount you owe (which I suggested in #2). If you have copies of your tax returns from all those years, it might not be too hard to prepare the amended returns manually. One thing I would not do is contact the IRS before you have an idea of your exposure and a legal consultation.
@gday111 wrote:
BTW_Thanks to All who have responded. While I blame my previous Tax Preparer for never spotting this I honestly never knew there were limitations based on Income and it amazes me that after all those years I never read anything that tipped me off to that fact. How that alluded me I will always question.
I just faithfully contributed the Max amount per year to my Roth thinking I was doing the right thing for my Retirement.
I want to point out one final thing. I ran a quick spreadsheet, and if you contributed the maximum each year from 2006 to 2024, and were always ineligible, then you have $103,500 of contributions and $57,870 of cumulative 6% penalties, not including interest and the late payment penalty. That is a substantial risk, and well worth the cost of at least one and maybe two consultations with expert professionals.
@gday111 wrote:
BTW_Thanks to All who have responded. While I blame my previous Tax Preparer for never spotting this I honestly never knew there were limitations based on Income and it amazes me that after all those years I never read anything that tipped me off to that fact. How that alluded me I will always question.
I just faithfully contributed the Max amount per year to my Roth thinking I was doing the right thing for my Retirement.
A legitimate tax professional would have errors and omissions insurance, and should work with you for free to fix this problem, and cover your penalties.
Thanks for pointing out the Errors and Omissions Insurance. The Tax Preparer I had been using for the past 18 years was an Older man who was a retired Accountant if I remember correctly. I last talked to him about 9 months ago when I first discovered theses excessive Contributions as I tried doing my Taxes for the first time using Turbo Tax.
He retired all together about a year ago due to health issues and the last time I talked with him he was noticeably slower and confused.
1_If he had Errors and Omission Insurance is there a way for me to verify that on my own? Is there a way for me to check with some Central registry? I think that would be key to getting this resolved without relying on him.
He was not eager to help me when I contacted him last and I am not so sure he would be willing to help me now if I am trying to get him to cover these expenses which are substantial.
2_Would I be covered if he did have Error and Omissions Insurance at the time of my Incorrect Tax filings and he no longer carries that Insurance or if he has passed since my last conversation with him?
Thanks Opus17_your expertise and advice are greatly appreciated
If you have 102,000 of ineligible contributions you have to remove 102,000 from the Roth. or the entire value of the Roth IRA, whichever is less.
If you have 57,000 of penalty you will be able to afford the penalty unless your Roth IRA current value is less that 57,000.
Note: if your Roth IRA is worth less than 57,000 then the closing of the Roth IRA limits your penalty to the final value of the Roth IRA.
Closing the Roth IRA would be to your advantage.
If your Roth is worth more than 102,000 then that gain remains in your Roth IRA. Closing the Roth IRA would be to your disadvantage.
the 6% per year is the penalty, there is no interest or other penalties.
You can do this yourself without paying $400 an hour to an expert.
I've covered the process in other threads for persons with this problem, three or four excess years but never for 18 instances. the procedure is still the same but tedious.
If your IRA is worth less than 57,000 you can stop amending when you use up that amount on Forms 5329.
You would start amending with the earliest year with an ineligible contribution.
You can make your Roth IRA worth less than $57,000 by trading it away in the stock or options market.
Maybe you're there already ??
@dmertz --
If you submit today a 2005 1040-X with a 6% additional tax on 2005 Form 5329 Line 25,
is the IRS going to hit you with late payment interest on the amount on 2005 Form 5329 Line 25 ?
My Roth IRA is worth $179K as of today. I am going to look at my yearly Contribution notes tonight and create a chart as Opus17 suggested. His calculations are probably pretty correct because as I stated I made the Maximum Yearly Contribution to my Roth for at least the last 18 years and I exceeded the Income limitation for most of them.
Reopening this conversation really makes my head hurt but I thank you all for you input. I need to address this catastrophe. Not a Happy Retirement payoff for me.
Thanks Fanfare
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