I've completed the Estate Tax return using "Business" and successfully attached the signed form 8453-FE to the return. At least, TurboTax says I've successfully attached it, as I can view it in the Attachments window. But when I produce the PDF for the E-File only the unsigned version of the form shows up. I want to be sure the IRS gets the signed version when I e-file!
Thanks
@BobS21 wrote:
......when I produce the PDF for the E-File only the unsigned version of the form shows up. I want to be sure the IRS gets the signed version when I e-file!
That is perfectly normal and typical behavior; the form in the Forms List is just the unsigned form.
The signed form is (or should be) saved on your computer as a PDF. I would recommend saving the signed, scanned 8453-FE in the same folder (or on the same media) as your .tax file and the PDF from the 1041 you filed.
@BobS21 wrote:
......when I produce the PDF for the E-File only the unsigned version of the form shows up. I want to be sure the IRS gets the signed version when I e-file!
That is perfectly normal and typical behavior; the form in the Forms List is just the unsigned form.
The signed form is (or should be) saved on your computer as a PDF. I would recommend saving the signed, scanned 8453-FE in the same folder (or on the same media) as your .tax file and the PDF from the 1041 you filed.
I'm seeing the same problem and your reply doesn't make any sense.
How do I know that TT is actually sending the signed version of 8453-FE if it doesn't show that signed version in the PDF records form?
TT made me print out the 8543-FE form, physically sign-it, scan it into my computer, attach it to TT and then TT programmers are too lazy to make it show up in the permanent record? Sheese. Talk about a lame company!
The signed and dated form is saved on your computer,
You simply need to save a copy on some media (e.g., USB flash drive) and/or print it out and save it.
It's not "simple" at all. And it is quite stoopid of TT to design the process so poorly.
I get a single PDF for my records that include the forms sent to the IRS. Now, you are telling me that I either need to print out separate pages of whatever was sent to the IRS, remove the unsigned page, replace it with the signed page and then scan the whole mess back into a single file so I have a copy that matches what was sent to the IRS.
Or I can take the signed form and also use PDF modifying software to attach it to the existing PDF file that represents what was sent to the IRS.
When I pay $120 for a piece of software, I don't expect kludge "solutions" like this!
@joejoe1592 wrote:When I pay $120 for a piece of software, I don't expect kludge "solutions" like this!
I understand.
The design could certainly be better and include the signed form in the list of forms and (one) PDF.
This same situation occurs with Tax Year 2021. This NEEDS TO BE FIXED!! How am I to tell if the SIGNED 8453 was included in the file transmitted to the IRS when the file saved in the PDF is unsigned??
@rmfrog1 wrote:
How am I to tell if the SIGNED 8453 was included in the file transmitted to the IRS when the file saved in the PDF is unsigned??
You can save the PDF on your computer (or other media as a separate file) but how can you tell if you e-filed anything other than the confirmation e-mail from Intuit?
There is no electronic postmark as there is in the TurboTax individual income tax preparation products.
@lanstrah wrote:
why doesnt signed copy show
You save the signed copy of the 8453-FE on your computer (after you have signed it and scanned it in).
Ok ... the signed PDF copy is attached to the efiled return but it is NOT added to the PDF of the return in the program file... it is not integrated in the program PDF files. It is just that simple ... the only copy in the program PDF will remain unsigned so simply keep the paper copy you signed and uploaded with the paper copy of the return you may have printed out of the program.
This problem still exists. TT Tech Support says that the 1041 File Package contains the signed Form 8453-FE (the same as shown in file saved in the 'Attachment' under the Tools Pulldown Menu). It is concerning that the 1041 Package available to the user for downloading after the return has been filed with the IRS doesn't show the signed Form 8453-FE but only the unsigned version. Certainly what is available to the user to save for his records is not the same as filed with the IRS, as advertised. I guess that the user will be contacted by the IRS if the actually submitted version of the Form 8453-FE is unsigned, there is an amount due with the return, and the IRS can't get easily collect the money due. We shall see! A nit is that the user instructions are to check that the uploaded signed Form 8453-FE is verified via the 'Attachments' selection in the "Upper Right" portion of the menu bar. Of course, the 'Attachments' selection is buried under the 'Tools' pulldown menu.
You really don't need to send the IRS a signed Form 8453, unless some other documents are required to be sent in with it (per the boxes checked on the form).
Here's more info on Form 8453.
Marilyn,
IF Form 8453-FE is not required, except under the conditions you have referenced, then why is there not an option on the TT Business & Trust Program to bypass including that form. Currently, the user must go thru an extended process to create a signed Form 8453-FE (using external resources) and upload it to the TT program so that it can be included in the Fiduciary version of the electronically submitted 1041 package to the IRS.
Thanks, Don
Yes, you are correct. A signed Form 8453 is required in a Fiduciary return, Form 1041.
This form is very different than the 8453 that a normal taxpayer uses on a Form 1040 return.
Here's more on Form 8453-FE.
I'm sorry that I wasn't more specific early as my comments were only related to the TT Business & Trust program. I'm using that program to create a 1041 package for a Irrevocable Trust that is a separate legal entity (it's own EIN, non-grantor trust). I believe that we agree that a Form 8453-FE is required for that type (Fiduciary) of 1041 package submittal. So, can you readdress my original comments/concerns, please? Why doesn't the user have access to the actual 1041 package submitted to the IRS which includes the signed version of the Form 8453-FE and be available to be included in the Fiduciary's permanent records?
Thanks, Don
Again, the signed form is saved on your computer (typically as a PDF), uploaded to the program, and then attached and e-filed along with the rest of the return.
Frankly, I'm not sure where the confusion lies since the form cannot possible be signed within the program itself. Rather, it must be printed out, signed, and then scanned and saved to a folder on the user's computer. As a result, the user will always have access to the form unless the user deletes it.
tagteam,
There are many posts that identify the issue with an eFiled 1041 Package (supposedly the one sent to the IRS). The concern is that the submitted Package seems to contain an unsigned Form 8453-FE and not the signed Form 8453-FE. Since the program requires the users to create a signed Form 8453-FE and then upload it to the program, one expects that the signed form to be included in the Package as a replacement for the unsigned form. This is common practice in software applications. In any case, after the completed 1041 Package is eFiled, the program offers the option of printing out or saving a copy of the eFiled 1041 Package for the user's permanent records (of what was provided to the IRS). Note that this offer by the program specifically lists the Form 8453-FE as being part of the submitted package to the IRS. However, when one inspects what is offered by the program, the only Form 8453-FE **in the 'submitted' package** is the unsigned version of that Form. Based on what is provided to the user for printout/saving, there is no reason to believe that the signed Form 8453-FE has been sent to the IRS as the offered printout/save package of what was submitted is silent regarding any attachment(s) or concerning the signed version of the Form 8453-FE. It should be noted that if there has been an attachment to the 1041 Package submittal (of a signed Form 8453-FE) does this mean that there are 2 such Form 8453-FE, one unsigned in the body of the package and one signed and attached to the package, that are submitted to the IRS in the package?
The confusion that you alluded to is not related to the availability of a saved signed Form 8453-FE to the program user after saving that signed form to his local computer. Rather, the confusion is: (1) why a1041 Package offered to be saved for our permanent records (and that was supposed to be the same as submitted to the IRS) instead only contains an unsigned Form 8453-FE. If the program simply: (1) replaced the unsigned Form 8453-FE with the signed Form 8453-FE in the 1041 Package being submitted to the IRS; OR (2) the offered 'as submitted' 1041 Package to be retained for permanent record included any/all attachments, then the issue is resolved. Again, your description of how the 1041 Package submittal is supposed to work would indicate that the IRS will receive 2 Form 8453-FEs.
I hope that this clarifies what many of us perceive to be a serious shortcoming in the TT Business program, especially for Fiduciary users.
@stuckinnova wrote:I hope that this clarifies what many of us perceive to be a serious shortcoming in the TT Business program, especially for Fiduciary users.
You may not be aware that the program can be used to prepare business returns (corporations, partnerships/LLCs) as well as fiduciary returns and those returns also require 8453 variants in order to be e-filed (e.g., 8453-PE, 8453-CORP).
You may also not be aware of the purpose of the form, which is nothing more than to authorize an ERO (in this case, Intuit/TurboTax) to e-file the return on your behalf. If you are printing and mailing a 1041, for example, there is no need for an 8453-FE.
[I suppose my point in the last paragraph is simply that if you are ever questioned as to whether a 1041 was filed by the IRS, you're not going to be able to whip out the 8453-FE you signed as proof that the return was filed, which makes the signed copy pretty much irrelevant]
tagteam wrote:
You may also not be aware of the purpose of the form, which is nothing more than to authorize an ERO (in this case, Intuit/TurboTax) to e-file the return on your behalf. If you are printing and mailing a 1041, for example, there is no need for an 8453-FE.
Your information is incorrect. Form 8453-FE is required for Fiduciary filed 1041 Returns for Trusts. In the Part II section, it "...authorizes the IRS and its designate Financial Agent to initiate an ACH electronic funds withdrawal(direct debit) entry to the financial institution account indicated in the tax preparation software..."
The Trust Fiduciary must sign the Form 8453-FE as part of the eFiled 1041 Package submittal. It should be noted that the form specifically requires that it be "...File electronically WITH the estate's or trust's return. Do not file paper copies..."
@stuckinnova wrote:....It should be noted that the form specifically requires that it be "...File electronically WITH the estate's or trust's return. Do not file paper copies..."
That was sort of my point; it is not you, the fiduciary, who files it; the ERO files it on your behalf. Without the signature of the ERO (see the bottom of the form), you've got nothing.
Your information is incorrect. Form 8453-FE is required for Fiduciary filed 1041 Returns for Trusts. In the Part II section, it "...authorizes the IRS and its designate Financial Agent to initiate an ACH electronic funds withdrawal(direct debit) entry to the financial institution account indicated in the tax preparation software..."
Please read the Form 8453-FE requirements printed in the instructions and directly on the form. The key purpose for this form is to authorize the collection of the tax due and must be signed by the Fiduciary in the indicated Part II section. If unsigned then the IRS can't collect and won't be happy!
You're missing the point, which revolves around the reason the signed form is not included in the PDF with the rest of the return.
Note that the entire purpose of the form is to authorize an ERO to e-file the return and, if appropriate, to authorize the Treasury to initiate an ACH funds withdrawal from the financial institution account indicated in the tax preparation software for payment of the estate’s or trust’s taxes.
Again, the form is relatively useless to the filer (TurboTax customer) without the signature of the ERO (Intuit) and I believe your initial complaint was that the signed form was not included in the list of forms nor the PDF that is saved with all of the other forms, schedules, and worksheets.
Thanks to the OP, BobS21 for posting this and thanks to tagteam for the replies letting us know the details when TT leaves us wondering. This forum really helps cover for many issues of TT. My TT for Business efile screen didn't specify to look in Tools menu it just said
-You currently have form 8453 attached to your return. To view this attachment select Attachments in the upper right of your screen-
Leaving me a bit confused, but looking now in (upper Left) Tools->Attachments shows my attached sign sheet (by filename) and it says -it will be sent out with your tax return-
That would apply to efiling, since the PDF print doesn't include the signature copy we'd have to be manually sign it on a mailed return. Thanks for this thread it helped me.
I have the same issue/question, not only with Form 8453, but also with Form 2553. Both required my signature. Additionally, in my case, there is an attachment to Form 2553 that I must submit to IRS together with the Form 2553.
I followed TurboTax instructions to produce PDF files of F8453 and F2553 with signatures, including the attachment to F2553, and uploaded them according to the instructions. These PDF files did show up in the list of TurboTax's "Attachments".
The problem causing my(our) concerns is that, before or after e-filing, the printout from TurboxTax does not show the signed F8453, signed F2553, and my attachment to F2553.
Yes, I still have a copy of them in my hard drive. I can easily open, view, and print them out. That is not the issue. The issue is, after e-filing, I am not sure whether TurboTax has sent IRS the signed copies and the extra attachment or not.
Apparently some people who replied earlier in this thread missed the point. They did not get what my (our) issues are.